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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:24 am 
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rumtap wrote:
I've actually had a bit of an idea building on this concept. It will take me a little while to flesh it out.

I once read an interesting approach to contests (which includes social contests) using playing cards. Depending on the difficulty of the encounter, you put down a number of shuffled face-down playing cards - the more difficult the encounter, the more cards you place down. If the outcome is being contested, each contestant has their own line of cards. Note that contestants don't necessarily have the same number of cards - a handsome prince wooing a visiting princess is going to need to make fewer successes than a butt-ugly peasant with leprosy.

  1. You start the encounter by turning over the first card - red cards are advantages, black cards are disadvantages.
  2. The number on the card is the modifier to the next roll (this may need to be toned down for DW, with it's narrow difficulty range, see below).
  3. The player or GM narrates what the disadvantage/advantage is represented by the card.
  4. The contestant makes a skill check, applying the modifier on the card. If successful, he may turn over the next card; but if he fails, he must try again on his next turn.
  5. The first contestant to succeed a test against all of the cards in his series wins the contest. If the check is not contested, then the GM determines how many failures the test can tolerate before the character can no longer succeed.

For DW, I would recommend the following modifiers:
  • Ace = 0
  • 2-4 = 1
  • 5-7 = 2
  • 8-10 = 3
  • Picture = 4
  • Joker = 5, and add to (if black) or remove from (if red) a face-down card from your series.

It works for chases, gambling, social scenes, climbing, and a whole host of other skill-based challenges. I'm looking forward to trying it out during my next DW campaign :).

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:27 pm 
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That does sound like a fun method but I wonder if it is a good idea to install yet another totally different event resolution mechanic into the game...

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:00 pm 
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WodenKrait wrote:
That does sound like a fun method but I wonder if it is a good idea to install yet another totally different event resolution mechanic into the game...

This would actually reduce the number of mechanics in the game. How many different ways are there to forage, climb, gamble, charm, craft, etc.? How many abilities could be simplified if they just added/removed cards to a skill check? I'm quite looking forward to trialing this method both to simplify the game and to rebalance the focus of the game away from combat encounters.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:08 pm 
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Apologies in advance for the long post.

My idea for the looks, presence and hypnotic suggestion is to refine the current rules rather than completely replace them. I think they need to work together as a set so I’ve tried to create more harmony between them. I don’t see these rules as a substitute for role-play but as a tool to work with them.

In putting this together I have tried to:
• Better demonstrate the actual intent of the rules as described in this thread.
• Work with the existing rules as much as I could.
• Better define the differences and limitations of each ability.
• Have the abilities become appropriately stronger as they go up in rank.

Looks Rule
Characters will often find themselves in awkward situations and may need to spend some time talking themselves into a better position. Using the Looks rules a player may hopefully improve their characters situation in an effort to achieve a more favourable outcome. Success doesn’t necessarily mean the player will get the outcome they want; it just improves their changes of a better outcome.
To make a Looks check first you must calculate the starting difficulty factor by using the modifiers on page 12-13 of the Players Guide. In addition to this you must also factor in the difference in social standing between the character and the subject. To do this, use the table on page 195 of the Dragon Warriors Rule Book. If the character is of higher social class then the difference is subtracted from the difficulty, if they are lower than the difference is added. For example a character with social class cottar (status 2) trying to use looks on a subject of social class freeman (status 5) adds 3 to the difficulty factor.

The character engages the subject in conversation for 1 minute and then compares their looks to the difficulty factor, if it is higher they succeed, if it is lower they must try roll under the difficulty on 1d20. Success then lowers the difficulty factor for the next check by 1. Once the difficulty is reduced to 3 the character has connected with the subject. (note I used 3 as it is the minimum looks that could be rolled by a character, however using characteristic ranges from DWRB page 21, 5 may be a reasonable target?)

Knaves, as experts in manipulating looks, may reduce the difficulty factor by 2 after each success.

This means getting somebody “onside” may not be immediate and may take several minutes for the character to achieve.

Side Note: The current rules allow a knave to add their rank to their looks. I think this may be too large a bonus. Perhaps half rank may be more reasonable (similar to climb), or is any bonus really needed at all?

Example: Jenna a young 2rd rank Assassin that specialises in thieving is passing through a small village in Albion on her way from one job to another. Overhearing the villagers boast about the beautiful silver crucifix in the local church she decides to pay it a visit late that evening. Due to a poor stealth roll the local priest is alerted to her presence and walks in just as she reaches her hand out towards the prize. Caught in the act, or is she?

Thinking fast Jenna turns towards the priest. “Oh hello father, so sorry to wake you. I’ve been troubled by bad dreams and came here to seek comfort.” Lucky for her the priest, despite his suspicions, is a reasonable man and is prepared to hear her story. What Jenna doesn’t know however, is this priest spent several years fighting in the crusades as a knight before taking up the cloth.

Jenna calculates her starting difficulty factor using the standard formula starting at 10, +2 as the priest is wary, +1 as he is a higher rank (he is a 5th rank knight), +1 as he has a slightly higher intelligence. The priest has an average perception score for his rank so there is no adjustment for this (Note: Am I applying perception correctly? Is it based on the average perception for that profession at their rank?). The GM taking a liking to the story the player is spinning grants a -2 modifier for role-play. We now apply social status. In this situation Jenna as an unknown in this village will be counted as riffraff, status 1. The priest counts as gentry, status 6. This results in another +5 to the difficulty bringing the total to 17.

Jenna smiles and begins explaining her side of the story to the priest. Lucky for her she has a looks of 16. The player makes a roll to represent each minute she converses with the priest (note in reality this will be a mix of role-play and dice rolls with options for the GM to further modify the roll!) Jenna makes her first roll reducing the difficulty factor to 16. She no longer needs to roll but in total it takes Jenna 14 minutes to reduce the difficulty factor to 3 before the priest, with a blessing, wishes her a goodnight and sends her on her way.

Presence
The knave further develops their ability to use the power of personality in social situations. A knave with this ability may use the looks rules with increased effectiveness. The knave uses the looks rules as described above but each successful roll decreases the level of difficulty by 4, allowing them to advance their situation far quicker. Furthermore the knave can convince others that their social status is higher or lower at will gaining +1 for every 3rd rank.

Example: Garran a 6th rank knave finds himself in trouble and locked in the lord’s dungeon. Figuring he has nothing to lose one night he uses his presence on the turnkey and strikes up a conversation using all the strength of his personality. He calculates his difficulty factor as 10, +4 for the hostile guard, -1 as the guard is of lower rank, -1 as Garran has the higher intelligence and no modifier for the guard’s average perception. Now we add in the social modifier, Garran is riff raff (status 1) but due to his presence now counts status 3, placing him on equal footing with his keeper. This brings his total difficulty to 12 an easy challenge for Garran with looks of 14. It takes Garran 3 minutes to lower the difficulty factor to a point where the guard becomes friendly with him. With a wink Garran suggests that the guard could just let him out. The Guard laughs “then I’d be in there instead of you!” Garran doesn’t get his way but the guard throws him an extra hunk of bread at meal time.

It is very important to note that looks and presence will only give you a chance to gain an advantage with somebody that is prepared to deal with you. It won’t change a stubborn or determined mind. In the presence example given above, if Garran was in the dungeon for killing a town guard that happened to be the gaoler’s best friend, then no amount of charm is going to help him. In fact any attempt to speak may well just earn him a brutal beating.

Hypnotic Suggestion
The mechanics for this one remain the same as in the PG. I.e. converse for minutes equal to victims rank and roll under looks to succeed. Failure will result in the victim becoming hostile as previous noted. It may be worth clarifying that if the subject is not willing to enter into conversation then this ability won’t work.

Such is the power of this ability that the difficulty modifiers do not apply and it may even work on those that looks or presence may fail on. As per the player guide, this will not force somebody to do something completely out of character or against their moral code.

Something not covered by the players guide is how long can a suggestion be implanted for? Can it be delayed? I’d suggest that a hypnotic suggestion can have a delay of a number of days equal to the knaves rank. If this is thought to be too powerful then perhaps reduce to number of hours equal to rank.

Example: Three Fingered Jake an 8th rank knave based in Clyster walks into the shop of a merchant specialising in jewellery. Jake strikes up a friendly conversation praising the quality of the merchants display. He even parts with a handful of florins to purchase an item. Feeling the time is right Jake leans in closer and looks the merchant in the eye. Knowing that the merchant likes a drink and knowing his favourite tavern (he has been watching him for over a week) Jake makes his move. Rolling a 1 on d20 the player smiles, “you will be in such a rush to get to the Goblin’s Tooth tonight you will forget to lock up the shop.”

The merchant laughs. “I do love a nice cup that’s the truth.”

Jake returns shortly before closing time to wait.

Anyway that’s just what I’ve come up over the last few nights. The biggest changes are the introduction of social status, the requirement for a series of looks rolls and changing the mechanics of presence.

I think using social status for looks and presence instead of rank is a relatively small change but adds a good amount of character to the rules. A 5th rank knave from a riff raff background is still regarded the same socially as a 6th rank knave with the same background. It is social status that will open doors, not rank born from combat experience and I think this was the intent of the original rules.

Changing the requirement from “may” require a series of rolls to needing to make the rolls to lower the difficulty to an acceptable degree is a pretty big change. I did this for two reasons, to reinforce that some marks are easier to sway than others and to add a time factor. Time can be a good plot device, “you need to believe me, the Baron’s life is in danger and every second counts.” Still I can understand why people may feel all the extra rolling is overkill. If that’s the case simply change it back to “may require a series of rolls but a high difficulty factor would indicate that the subject may take some extra talking around.”

Changing the mechanics of presence to work with the looks rules I think helps to show the knave growing in their skills. It also stops the meta-gaming of “which rule gives me the best chance.” If the optional looks rules are not being used in general then they simply become a part of this ability alone.

Well that’s just some of my ideas for consideration. I’m interested to hear what others may do differently with the knave.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:27 pm 
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short attention span at the moment, but my first thoughts are that looks and 'luck' are the same thing. Being good looking can be a curse which is clear in some bbc news articles in recent months. I think it should be untouched, good looking people are cursed and subjected to positive or negative attention according to the beholder.


As for the various situations that can arise and resolved, I figure that's down to intellect, and whether the player can think of a justifiable reason to delay or sway his audience. Not possible if you don't speak the same language, but if you do, a lot of factors such as bribes, harsh management, personal circumstances, slander and built up negativity can affect the outcome.

For example, not every knight is susceptible to bribes. By conversing with them under different circumstances, such as when drunk or after being disciplined they may be inclined to disclose more information. In another situation, a bribe will help resolve so many things. The complexity of social interaction isn't given much thought, we're just relying on some basic looks based rolls.

Imagine a knave who works on a different time scale, who frequents a guards favourite pub, who befriends him, who hears of his issues with money, family issues, favoured hot babes and limitations. A knave can accomplish much more if he knew of such desires, and was able to knock off or resassign troublesome individuals. In the end he guarantees the guys cooperation with a well timed bribe, and also declaring his intent is simple theft rather than a desire to assassinate a key vip.


It gets complex and I wouldn't recommend writing up an adventuring section to cover such a complex situation, but it does apply. An upfront bribe might not work right away, unless it is pretty substantial but also the intent of the player or what he declares is a major factor. A Guard might overlook an intent to steal but not an intent to assassinate.



In the same way, no knave is going to get peoples attention on a battlefield, not unless he happens to have a loud whistle, some loud and unique musical instrument or bagpipes. If he does break their attention, maybe he can then make a statement or speech or statement about the heritage of some 'noble' lord...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:36 am 
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Well we certainly have a number of good ideas here on how the knave can be smoothed out a bit.

It's a bit of a diamond in the rough at the moment.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:17 am 
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As regards the Players Guide, the brief for Looks was to keep it simple, not introduce any new attributes and apply it to *all* professions, and *not* just the Knave. However, the Looks checks were certainly not intended to be robust and exhaustive,and again this is precisely why Looks checks are *optional*. Despite this, the Looks mechanic can still accomodate house rules for modifiers based on social standing, previous interactions, battlefield situation, etc. at the discretion of the GM.

Broad attributes and mechanics based on social standing are good ideas - as hinted at by Dave Morris previously on the Fabled Lands blog - so if a Dragon Warriors Version 2 were ever to be developed then I wouldn't be surprised if that type of concept were accomodated.

I find the house rules proposed so far interesting. More, please!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:06 am 
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I've been working and reworking my ideas around the knave and looks.

What I have now far more closely resembles the rules published in the players guide. Where I think they improve on what was published is mainly a change in language and descriptions. The published rules can be interpreted as being far more powerful than I believe was intended. So it was a main goal for me to bring it back a little.

Other changes
- I've ditched the rank bonus for knaves when making a looks check. It's far too big an advantage. I've gone with 1/2 rank rounded up.
- I've stuck with the idea of presence working on social status not rank. I think this better reflects the concept and rank is not something that the average person can determine anyway, class is.
- Included rules for a time delay on hypnotic suggestion

So here is my current version (basically it is just a rewrite of what I posted previously with updated changes.)

Looks
Characters will often find themselves in awkward situations and may need to spend some time talking themselves into a better position. Using the Looks rules a player may hopefully improve their characters situation in an effort to achieve a more favourable outcome. Success doesn’t necessarily mean the player will get the outcome they want; it just improves their changes of a better outcome.

To make a Looks check first you must calculate the starting difficulty factor by using the modifiers on page 12-13 of the Players Guide. In addition to this you must also factor in the difference in social standing between the character and the subject. To do this, use the table on page 195 of the Dragon Warriors Rule Book. If the character is of higher social class then the difference is subtracted from the difficulty, if they are lower than the difference is added. For example a character with social class cottar (status 2) trying to use looks on a subject of social class freeman (status 5) adds 3 to the difficulty factor.

The character engages the subject in conversation for 1 minute and then compares their looks to the difficulty factor, if it is higher they succeed automatically, if it is lower they must try roll under their looks on 1d20.

Note: A high difficulty factor may require a series of rolls to convince the subject.

Knaves, as experts in manipulating looks, gain a bonus of 1/2 rank rounded up to their looks score when using these rules.

Example: Jenna a young 2rd rank Assassin that specialises in thieving is passing through a small village in Albion on her way from one job to another. Overhearing the villagers boast about the beautiful silver crucifix in the local church she decides to pay it a visit late that evening. Due to a poor stealth roll the local priest is alerted to her presence and walks in just as she reaches her hand out towards the prize. Caught in the act, or is she?

Thinking fast Jenna turns towards the priest. “Oh hello father, so sorry to wake you. I’ve been troubled by bad dreams and came here to seek comfort.” Lucky for her the priest, despite his suspicions, is a reasonable man and is prepared to hear her story. What Jenna doesn’t know however, is this priest spent several years fighting in the crusades as a knight before taking up the cloth.

Jenna calculates her starting difficulty factor using the standard formula starting at 10, +2 as the priest is wary, +1 as he is a higher rank (he is a 5th rank knight), +1 as he has a slightly higher intelligence. The priest has an average perception score for his rank so there is no adjustment for this. The GM taking a liking to the story the player is spinning grants a -2 modifier for role-play. We now apply social status. In this situation Jenna as an unknown in this village will be counted as riffraff, status 1. The priest counts as gentry, status 6. This results in another +5 to the difficulty bringing the total to 17.

Jenna smiles and begins explaining her side of the story to the priest. Lucky for her she has a good looks score of 16. Jenna makes her roll and slowly her charm begins to work. The priest, with a blessing, wishes her a goodnight and sends her on her way.

It is very important to note that looks will only give you a chance to gain an advantage with somebody that is prepared to deal with you and by no means is a guarantee of success.

Presence:
The knave further develops their ability to use the power of personality in social situations. A knave with this ability can convince others that their social status (Dragon Warriors page 195) is higher or lower at will gaining +/-1 for every 3rd rank. To do this the knave must roll under their looks on d20. Failure will result in the subject becoming very suspicious and possibly hostile towards the knave.

This perceived change in social status can be used in a number ways. It may further enhance a knave in disguise (maybe a bonus on the roll?), the chance of passing a looks check (see looks rules below), their ranking before the courts if on trial, or in other social situations approved by the GM.

Example: Garran a 6th rank knave finds himself in trouble and locked in the lord’s dungeon. Figuring he has nothing to lose one night he decides to try using his presence on the turnkey and strikes up a conversation using all the strength of his personality. With a looks score of 14 the player rolls a 10 and is able to convince the guard that he is more than he is. He now decides to make a looks check to further advance his cause.

He calculates his difficulty factor as 10, +4 for the hostile guard, -1 as the guard is of lower rank, -1 as Garran has the higher intelligence and no modifier for the guard’s average perception. Now we add in the social modifier, Garran is riff raff (status 1) but due to his presence now counts status 3, placing him on equal footing with his keeper. This brings his total difficulty to 12 an easy challenge for Garran with looks of 14 (enhanced to 17 due to his rank). Garran continues his conversation with the guard and, with a wink, suggests that the guard could just let him out. The Guard laughs “then I’d be in there instead of you!” Garran doesn’t get his way but the guard throws him an extra hunk of bread at meal time.

It is very important to note that looks and presence will only give you a chance to gain an advantage with somebody that is prepared to deal with you. It won’t change a stubborn or determined mind. In the example given above, if Garran was in the dungeon for killing a town guard that happened to be the gaoler’s best friend, then no amount of charm is going to help him. In fact any attempt to speak may well just earn him a brutal beating.

Hypnotic Suggestion:
The mechanics for this one remain the same as in the Players Guide. I.e. converse for minutes equal to victims rank and roll under looks to succeed. Failure will result in the victim becoming hostile as previous noted. It may be worth clarifying that if the subject is not willing to enter into conversation then this ability won’t work.

Such is the power of this ability that the difficulty modifiers do not apply and it may even work on those that looks and presence may fail on. As per the player guide, this will not force somebody to do something completely out of character or against their moral code.

Something not covered by the players guide is how long can a suggestion be implanted for? Can it be delayed? In this game a hypnotic suggestion can have a delay of up to a number of hours equal to the knaves rank.

Example: Three Fingered Jake an 8th rank knave based in Clyster walks into the shop of a merchant specialising in jewellery. Jake strikes up a friendly conversation praising the quality of the merchants display. He even parts with a handful of florins to purchase an item putting the shop keeper at ease. Feeling the time is right Jake leans in closer and looks the merchant in the eye. Knowing that the merchant likes a drink and knowing his favourite tavern (he has been watching him for over a week) Jake makes his move. Rolling a 1 on d20 the player smiles. “You will be in such a rush to get to the Goblin’s Tooth tonight you will forget to lock up the shop.”

The merchant laughs. “I do love a nice cup that’s the truth.”

Jake returns three hours later at closing time to watch the shop keeper run off in a hurry…



So do those that worked on the players guide feel this captures the spirit of what they were trying to do? As I've said before, I really like the knave and want it to work. I just feel the published rules are too confusing and don't clearly get the message across. I hope what I've done here can help others get their head around it a little better.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:32 pm 
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Well done.

Yeah, the perceived Rank Adjustment in Presence did have a sentence that described how Rank changes flowed into Renown changes.....but I just checked my printed copy and its not there...which explains why I was confused by your earlier questions because I remember it being in the document....

I remember writing it....not sure what happened there. :D

Direct changes to Renown without going through the Rank step should also work, I think the original thought was not to make it too powerful, may have erred on the side of caution a little too much in this case.

I'm going to bow out of PG discussion now, it was a long hard slog and I'm hoping to concentrate on getting some new stuff out either through SK or just for gratis...either way...its not like anyones making money on this. :D

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