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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:00 am 
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On the subject of social interaction rules, how about this for a deliberately inflamatory suggestion: bad roleplayers and bad communicators should stick to playing grunting hack-and slashers/taciturn magic users and leave the social professions for players who are eloquent or who can immerse themselves into the role. That avoids the need for a ruleset to compensate them (or conversely to handicap their more sophisticated counterparts).

Thoughts?

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:24 am 
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WodenKrait wrote:
Except that the outcome of an entire combat is not decided in advance by a secret roll. It's that aspect which sticks in my craw, and I think if combat really was conducted that way many players would perceive it as not just unsatisfying but even insultingly arbitrary.

Interesting - dice rolled in secret or the open provide no more control to the player (both are arbitrary). But secret die rolls provide more narrative suspense as the outcome is not revealed to the player until the role-played interaction concludes, which is more important in social interactions than combat.

WodenKrait wrote:
To do justice to a mechanisation of social interaction, at least if we're trying to justify that by drawing analogies with combat or magic, it needs to be transparent and "blow-by-blow".

And this is how I try to set up my social scenes in my own games - it's not over after the first roll of a die, but more of an ongoing contest of offer, counter-offer, etc. Which is kinda where I was going with this:

Cobwebbed Dragon wrote:
In more complicated social interactions, you can actually play them like combats - going various rounds until someone wins (whatever that means for the situation - the guard relinquishes the keys, the bureaucrat signs a form, the barmaid agrees to 'go upstairs' with the barbarian, etc.). This can actually be a great way to rebalance the focus of play away from combat (we all know how much of a time-sink combat can be in RPGs, and DW is no exception, which can result in non-combat orientated players feeling less involved - especially if their moment to shine in an adventure is over in a single die roll!)

Maybe I'll post some examples in a different thread sometime (as I think I might have hijacked this thread away from the Knave somewhat already...)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:06 am 
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Damian May wrote:

I think what may be causing some of the confusion is that Presence ( and the others, but we'll stick with Presence for now) as written is assuming that the Optional Looks rules are not being used. Therefore it represents a Looks roll ( and results) as a discrete action of the Presence Skill along with the additional Status adjustment that Presence grants.

Now, if the Optional Looks rules are being used then Presence becomes less useful in and of itself but because of the bonuses that Knaves receive to ALL Looks checks and rolls it becomes easier for them to succeed at making others believe their Status is at a different level than it actually is. And this will flow back into any additional Looks checks as the perceived higher Rank of the Knave will add a bonus to subsequent Looks checks.

Ok.........or have I made it more complicated?

:D



Yep definitely more complicated! Simplicity is what is needed here!

I agree that it seems the knave rules are written without the looks rules in mind, so when you combine them it just becomes a tangled mess.

The feedback I gave from play testing was to include the looks rules (at least for the knave even if other professions don't use them) but drop the knave's rank bonus. Change presence to be the knave can now add their rank to looks tests. Hypnotic Suggestion I recommended dropping altogether as it wasn't significantly different from the rest. I'll most likely use this as a house rule.

House ruling stuff is fine but I prefer not to have to as it can disappoint players who come to your games with an expectation based on the rules as published. But such is life.


Last edited by rumtap on Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:08 am 
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WodenKrait wrote:
rumtap wrote:
I immersed myself in that world so easily. I didn’t need lots of rules and charts telling me the average rainfall and humidity for some invented land


Genuine question: are there any RPGs that actually do this? Traveller comes close but I'm not aware of an FRPs like that.

Cheers,

-Kyle


This was poetic license to illustrate a point that rules heavy games can bog things down.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:14 am 
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WodenKrait wrote:
Except that the outcome of an entire combat is not decided in advance by a secret roll. It's that aspect which sticks in my craw, and I think if combat really was conducted that way many players would perceive it as not just unsatisfying but even insultingly arbitrary.

To do justice to a mechanisation of social interaction, at least if we're trying to justify that by drawing analogies with combat or magic, it needs to be transparent and "blow-by-blow".

Cheers,

Kyle


I do like the idea of expanding the social challenge beyond a single roll to be more blow by blow.

Instead of a single roll to seduce someone there is a series of rolls, roll to see if they will talk with you, roll to see if they will have a drink with you, roll to see how they respond to your hand on their leg, etc etc.

Play it out all the way and build the tension.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:25 am 
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WodenKrait wrote:
On the subject of social interaction rules, how about this for a deliberately inflamatory suggestion: bad roleplayers and bad communicators should stick to playing grunting hack-and slashers/taciturn magic users and leave the social professions for players who are eloquent or who can immerse themselves into the role. That avoids the need for a ruleset to compensate them (or conversely to handicap their more sophisticated counterparts).

Thoughts?

Cheers,

-Kyle


LOL Deliberately inflammatory is right!!

my answer is that role-play allows people to pretend to be something they're not. That would include being eloquent...

... well at least to some degree...


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:32 am 
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Cobwebbed Dragon wrote:

Maybe I'll post some examples in a different thread sometime (as I think I might have hijacked this thread away from the Knave somewhat already...)


Do you need to make a pilfer roll to hijack a thread?

I'd like to see some of your examples. I'm always interested in seeing how other people play the game.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:26 am 
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rumtap wrote:
Yep definitely more complicated! Simplicity is what is needed here!

I agree that it seems the knave rules are written without the looks rules in mind, so when you combine them it just becomes a tangled mess.

The feedback I gave from play testing was to include the looks rules (at least for the knave even if other professions don't use them) but drop the knave's rank bonus. Change presence to be the knave can now add their rank to looks tests. Hypnotic Suggestion I recommended dropping altogether as it wasn't significantly different from the rest. I'll most likely use this as a house rule.

House ruling stuff is fine but I prefer not to have to as it can disappoint players who come to your games with an expectation based on the rules as published. But such is life.


Dunno about 'tangled mess', it just makes each individual skill less useful but each one works to bulk up Looks tests in their own way.

Shifting the Rank bonus from All Knaves to Knaves with Presence is certainly not going to break anything but it will mean almost everyone will take Presence just to make sure they succeed as often as possible.

For myself, I'd leave Presence as is giving the +1 modifier which moves up to larger bonuses as the Knave increases in Rank.

:)

*shrug*

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:57 am 
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Damian May wrote:

Dunno about 'tangled mess', it just makes each individual skill less useful but each one works to bulk up Looks tests in their own way.

Shifting the Rank bonus from All Knaves to Knaves with Presence is certainly not going to break anything but it will mean almost everyone will take Presence just to make sure they succeed as often as possible.

For myself, I'd leave Presence as is giving the +1 modifier which moves up to larger bonuses as the Knave increases in Rank.

:)

*shrug*


By tangled mess I mean I'm still not sure which rules apply in any given situation. I had hoped that someone would be able to make it clearer to me (if anyone can please do!)

For example. If I want to shoot an arrow it is clear to me what set of rules to apply, there is only one option. If I have the Master Bowman skill then it is clear to me how my skill works within the framework of the existing shooting rule ( I get a bonus, not a separate rule set, the existing modifiers still apply).

Now as a knave I approach a walled town after nightfall to find the gate locked. The guard on duty says sorry can't let anyone in after dark.

Do I use the looks rule to talk my way in?
Do I use presence to gain favour with the guard so they open the gate?
Do I use Hypnotic suggestion to influence them subconsciously to open the gate?
Alternatively if I have my bodyguard with me can I intimidate them to do so?

The first 3 at least as written all seem to apply (the last one is open for interpretation) and all work slightly differently to achieve the same goal. Having a single framework to use (the looks rules) with additional benefits from skills gained (as in the master bowman example) is a much clearer to understand method.

At the moment it seems we have multiple ways to do the same thing so the player just picks which rule they use. Now people may be ok with that (and hey that's cool if you are) but for me it's confusing and it really moves away from the methodology of all other existing rules, ie a core rule with bonuses granted by skills.

So is it that all they all do apply in any situation and the player gets to picks the rule they use?
Or is there a definite distinction between all of these looks based rules/skills as to which one applies at certain times that I've failed to see?

I am just really struggling to see how it is meant to work so please help!!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:12 am 
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rumtap wrote:
Damian May wrote:

Dunno about 'tangled mess', it just makes each individual skill less useful but each one works to bulk up Looks tests in their own way.

Shifting the Rank bonus from All Knaves to Knaves with Presence is certainly not going to break anything but it will mean almost everyone will take Presence just to make sure they succeed as often as possible.

For myself, I'd leave Presence as is giving the +1 modifier which moves up to larger bonuses as the Knave increases in Rank.

:)

*shrug*


By tangled mess I mean I'm still not sure which rules apply in any given situation. I had hoped that someone would be able to make it clearer to me (if anyone can please do!)

For example. If I want to shoot an arrow it is clear to me what set of rules to apply, there is only one option. If I have the Master Bowman skill then it is clear to me how my skill works within the framework of the existing shooting rule ( I get a bonus, not a separate rule set, the existing modifiers still apply).

Now as a knave I approach a walled town after nightfall to find the gate locked. The guard on duty says sorry can't let anyone in after dark.

Do I use the looks rule to talk my way in?
Do I use presence to gain favour with the guard so they open the gate?
Do I use Hypnotic suggestion to influence them subconsciously to open the gate?
Alternatively if I have my bodyguard with me can I intimidate them to do so?

The first 3 at least as written all seem to apply (the last one is open for interpretation) and all work slightly differently to achieve the same goal. Having a single framework to use (the looks rules) with additional benefits from skills gained (as in the master bowman example) is a much clearer to understand method.

At the moment it seems we have multiple ways to do the same thing so the player just picks which rule they use. Now people may be ok with that (and hey that's cool if you are) but for me it's confusing and it really moves away from the methodology of all other existing rules, ie a core rule with bonuses granted by skills.

So is it that all they all do apply in any situation and the player gets to picks the rule they use?
Or is there a definite distinction between all of these looks based rules/skills as to which one applies at certain times that I've failed to see?

I am just really struggling to see how it is meant to work so please help!!


Ah! Ok...will do...just need to get to my PC.

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co-author Friends or Foes
co-author Dragon Warriors Players Guide
co-author Cold Fury
co-author Cadaver Draconis
co-author Ordo Draconis 1 and 2.


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