Dragon Warriors

I’ve posted my thoughts on the new professions in their own threads but will now continue and have a look at the rest of the latest edition to the Dragon Warriors library.

So I will start at the very beginning, the name. I grew up with simple but evocative titles for each new book such as The Way of Wizardry, Out Of the Shadows, The Power of Darkness. This was part of the simple charm of Dragon Warriors and I’m disappointed this didn’t happen here. Also I’d argue that this book is not actually a players guide anyway. It contains new rules for new professions, secondary skills, looks rules, rules for horses, etc. Stuff a game master would need. A players guide in my mind would just provide further information on developing a character and playing the game. To me this is more of an expansion than a players guide. All it lacks is a scenario, which if written for the new professions would have been a nice inclusion. I know a scenario wasn’t included as it was aimed at players, but as I’ve said the other material makes it more of an expansion anyway. So for me the name was a missed opportunity to continue a great tradition. Just off the top of my head Wielding the Faith or Words, Bows & Prays. I’m sure others could think of better titles than me.

But what about the content…

Organizations & Living in Legend are nice chapters. The background information in these chapters builds on the existing Dragon Warriors lore and compliments it very nicely. Very well done for the most part.

I only have two criticisms here.

One is the church, it just doesn’t go deep enough for me. As I noted in my comments under the priest I was hoping for details on all the major religions of Legend. Scattered throughout all the dragon warriors books you can peace together a moderate amount of information on the true faith, a small amount of information on the Ta’ashim faith and even less on the pagan beliefs. A players guide (especially one that introduced a priest profession) would have been an ideal place to compile and build on this information and deliver a clearer picture of what should be an important part of a characters life.

The second is Horses in Dragon Warriors. This section is a real mixed bag for me and I think it could have been delivered better. I would have liked to have seen some more information in the basic dragon warriors style. For example, what is the encumbrance value of a horse? (And other pack animals for that matter). The nine pages on horses that we do have however is too much (the church only got two!). Rather than several pages of modifiers in dot points I think a simple table would have worked better to compile a lot of this information and make it quicker to reference. The beauty of Dragon warriors has always been its simplicity so I think this could have been wound back a tad. My main bugbear here however is all the characteristic tests for controlling a horse that make a Looks roll. Since when does being pretty make you a better rider? So ugly people can’t ride? It feels like an arbitrary way to make Looks a more important stat. It isn’t necessary or realistic. Reflexes is the most logical stat to use and I’m amazed it wasn’t. All this being said there is some really nice stuff in here and I like that it builds on the role of horses in the game which I think should be an important one.

Magic & Society has lots of good stuff in it, possible the chapter I was most excited to see. I was a little surprised to see a more relaxed view of the church on magic. I always interpreted the church as viewing sorcerers as demon worshippers. This of course is only a minor detail. I’m really glad to see the changes to elementalists raw power (these I suggested during play testing) and the additional spells are nice touch. I really like the idea of being able to provide some regional variation.

Skills and War is an interesting chapter that plugs a few gaps in the system. Secondary skills deals with general non-profession based abilities that often crop up in game without a complete re-write of the skills system. I think it should work.

The art of combat is in my opinion is an unnecessary addition. Why try complicating a simple combat system with guards? Do guards make a barbarian’s berserk skill redundant? This section is a fail for me.

Additional Weapons are a nice inclusion although I would have preferred to have seen a minimum strength requirement on the longbow. The expanded armour rules however are disappointing. Adding different names and different prices for armour of the same factor may add fluff but it lacks substance and real value. For example I’d prefer to see the option of buying a set of armour with a factor of 3 but the combat penalties of AF 2 but at a much higher price than regular AF 3 armour. This would give players real options within the game, not just fluff.

The supremacy of the sword is a welcome addition. Some low level skills for the warriors so they don’t feel completely left out till 8th rank.

Demonology was included in out from the cold so I was surprised to see it here again. It makes a great villain NPC or character and I am a fan of this one.

Just some thoughts, whilst I'm not drinking, safer that I don't get too blunt like I normally would...

Ja. Horses. 9 pages with looks. I'd say intelligence is important. Maybe it is an all powerful stat, but it works for me. I mean, its probably the most important stat for sappers too.... Try palladium fantasy 1ed for what I consider quite idea horse rules. Just a chart or two and less reading.


Combat bothers me. I'm sure it would work for some people, but it does make it more cumbersome.

Haven't read it in depth, no time... damned information age.....

_________________
Speech!





And so the show begins!!!
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dwp ... ssages/640

The inclusion of the unloved Guards section and the redundant Demonology section now strikes me as particularly odd.

When the Player's Guide was first released I assumed they were including those sections to avoid putting out a ridiculously slender volume, but now that I've seen the generally excellent material in Cadaver Draconis, some or all of which I understand was originally slated for the Guide (Dreadnought can correct me if I've got that wrong), I'm puzzled over why the book was written to include such items of secondary importance. To the uninformed those priorities seem wonky.

Cheers,

-Kyle

The Players Guide contains new information concerning low level Demonologists. This information would have been useless if people didn't also have access to the original demonology material and as there are copyright reasons that prevent 'In From the Cold' being republished at this point, anybody who doesn't already have it would not have been able to get it. There are also other reasons why it was important to get the Demonology material back out there that I don't think should be described at this point. I'm not trying to be cryptic but I will say that I hope will become clear in the relatively near future, and it will also be obvious why I don't think more can be said about that at this point.

As for why a lot of the material contained in Cadaver Draconis wasn't in the Player's Guide, I can only speculate, but my speculation is that a large part of the reason is one I've aluded to before - the weren't the people available to playtest it and balance it properly.

I was involved in the final proofreading - not the main editing, just the proofreading of the Player's Guide. I wish people could see the size of the document we put together just in terms of proofreading. I had no idea of how involved this process was having never been involved in it before. But to give you some idea of the scale of the issue, the proofreading notes alone are 65 pages and over 25,000 words long. A lot of this is 'picky' stuff - making sure that the word Knight is capitalised in every case where it should be (ie, when it's the title of the profession) and not when it shouldn't be. And this was for a document that was basically finished - if you could see it, at first glance you wouldn't notice any real differences from the book that eventually went on sale. And that is just the text - never mind the issues of balance etc.

_________________
Life and Death Are Only a Dice Roll Away!

Shaun Hately
co-author A Weak Pleasure
co-author Friends or Foes
co-author Dragon Warriors Players Guide

I should say up front that I believe I wrote the material on the church - it's honestly hard to remember exactly who wrote what at this point, and I wrote it with a particular focus in mind. To me, it always seemed clearly understood that the Player's Guide was primarily focused on the lands already explored in Dragon Warriors - the lands around the Coradian Sea. The area that corresponds with our own 'real world' medieval European region. It wasn't intended to go into too much detail and discussion of other areas of the world - that is for later region focused sourcebooks (which I hope will actually happen at some point, now that we have the PG bugbear out of the way - but we'll have to wait and see). These are areas where the True Faith holds sway, and that's why I focused on that.

In my view, these lands are not presented as pluralistic places where other religions have much current influence.

Though the Old Empire is gone — and only its shadow is now visible in the New Empire of Tamor — Selentium is still vitally important as the spiritual centre of the west. Albion, Cornumbria, Algandy, Chaubrette, Kurland, Emphidor, Molasaria — these are the lands of the True Faith, the new religion which swept away the primitive older gods of the Empire. (Dragon Warriors, p.164).

Discussion of the 'pagan gods' is something I'd want to see in a sourcebook for nations such as Thuland and Mercania. Ta'ashim is something I'd want to see in a sourcebook based around the crusades, or the southern lands.

I'd also probably want somebody else to write it (or to have a lot more time to research it,if it was me). It's hardly any secret that these religions are based on ones in our real world, and writing that type of material without risking causing people offence, really requires a very firm handle on the 'source material' - not because you can't change it, but because you need to know what you are doing in changing it. Being raised in the Catholic Church, and especially being Jesuit educated, and also having taught in Anglican, Orthodox, and evangelical Christian schools, meant I had no qualms about writing about a religion based on Christianity (just for the record, I'd no longer describe myself as Christian - I'm an agnostic and have been since my teens - but I know what the teachings are) - but I'd want anybody writing about those other religious traditions to be at least as well informed about them as I am about Christianity. At least as well informed. And also reasonably respectful. Does the current crop of Dragon Warriors writers have such people? Maybe, I'm not sure.

_________________
Life and Death Are Only a Dice Roll Away!

Shaun Hately
co-author A Weak Pleasure
co-author Friends or Foes
co-author Dragon Warriors Players Guide

Not having had the chance to buy In from the Cold, I was glad the Demonology was included in the Player's Guide.

Horses and Guards are options my group has (wisely, IMO) chosen to ignore, as they add too much complexity and bog down the game/combat.

I'm overall satisfied with the Guide, however, it's a great addition to the game that adds flavors, interesting professions that will help make the game feel less like a hack-and-slash party, adding much-needed social elements and non-combat play that is more than just dice-fudging and talk between players and GM.

And all without changing the current rules or unbalancing the professions any more than they are already unbalanced. One common problem with expansions is that they always add more and more powerful items/professions/spells/characters/etc, rendering the original ones obsolete.... I was glad the Guide didn't do that.


Now what I'm really looking forward to however is a complete revamp of DW, but that's a huge undertaking not to be taken lightly! Speaking as a guy who has recently tried D&D 5e, that revamp turned out actually quite playable and fun!

Narmox.

Guards? I can confirm that the Guards section of the PG was written to a *very* specific design brief. The Guards rules were always intended to be entirely optional.

_________________
Show me the mythic legends, mighty heroes and mysterious faerie creatures!

Oh, are they the same rules I did years back as an addendum to the original DW release? Didn't even know they had been re-used. They were meant to just add a little bit of historical authenticity to the rather simplistic '5 types of armour' that you get in the basic ruleset. Quite literally 'fluff'.

Yeah, perhaps some notes on both crude but cheap or refined but expensive armour types would have been nice - for example allowing a knight to commission a master smith to create a suit of armour constructed of the best materials, fitted specifically for his frame, perhaps even with an associated upkeep cost, but functions as the equivalent of non-magical +1 plate mail. Stuff like that.

(Note: I haven't read the Players Guide)

In my own games I had a couple of custom armours.

Assassin's Silks had an AF of 1 but had no impact on Stealth and could also be disguised as regular clothing. 600 florins I also had a quilted silk Assassin's Cloak (400 florins) 600 florins. that provided AF 1 to attacks from the rear, had no stealth penalty, and could be rolled up and used as a shield.

There was also Jousting Plate, with an AF of 6 but one level higher impediment to fighting and spellcasting. Even knights could not fight in it without penalty unless they were on horseback at the time. I think Jousting Plate was twice the price of regular plate.

Cheers,

-Kyle

You can't just leave that hanging! Who issued this brief, and to what purpose? Enquiring minds demand to know!

To me its not that guards are bad idea as such, but more that they are a bad fit for Dragon Warriors and such an "out of left field" thing to include in the official Players' guide. There many cool house rules that have been suggested over the years for DW which didn't make the cut, but the guards rule, which I think does not fit at all well with the abstracted combat style of DW and which I don't think anybody was crying out for, did. It's mysterious...

Cheers,

-Kyle