Dragon Warriors

All good questions and thoughts for discussion.

I would say however that some (eg is god real in Legend) don't actually need to be answered. Just as in the real world such things are debateable and are "mysteries of the universe".

In game terms however, under the rules relics exist and have real power over certain types of creatures (fey, undead etc.)

It is reasonable then to say that an item such as holy water would also have some power. While the source of that power may be debatable, hence the different faiths of Legend, and perhaps not fully understood, it is still real.

Now I don't suggest that holy water has the same impact as a relic, as discussed previously it can be more subtle in effect, I would say that it should have some power however small that may be.

I think thats fair but it would have to do less than the most minor relic, a probably less than a crucifix ( which works on Vampires, Hellrots and Hellions)....not sure a bonus that small is worth quantifying. *shrug*

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co-author Fury of the Deep
co-author Friends or Foes
co-author Dragon Warriors Players Guide
co-author Cold Fury
co-author Cadaver Draconis
co-author Ordo Draconis 1 and 2.

You're probably right

That's interesting to me. I suppose its a factor of my tendency to extreme literalism and philosophical skepticism, but I feel quite differently about that kind of thing. I always feel that I need to understand what is and isn't real in the secondary worlds I create or gamesmaster, at least in as much as where it impinge on decisions I'd need to make as a GM. The existence or non-existence of a supreme being, whether reality is fundamentally materialistic etc are concepts that I'm not satisfied to leave unresolved in my own mind, even if they are never revealed.

Not that this helps determine how effective holy water in practical application however.

Cheers,

-Kyle

I'm not against Holy Water having significant in-game effects - for example, soulless creatures cannot walk upon consecrated ground. Not 'have difficulty' or 'take penalties' - they simply cannot enter a consecrated area.

Holy water can have similar significant impact on soulless creatures - perhaps burning them as fire would.

The trickier part is actually obtaining 'real' holy water that has been blessed by a suitable priest - I'd say that although there are many priests, only a very small number are pious enough to be able to truly bless water. And you can't really know until that moment of truth...

I don't support this idea based on the following.

We know certain creatures can't walk on consecrated ground. The suitability or piousness of the priest that performed the ritual that concentrated the ground is not questioned, so why do so for holy water?

If we look at crosses we know that they will work on vampires, hellions and hellrots (either drive them off or send them berserk). The faith or purity of the person making the cross is not taken into account.

Interestingly with crosses, while the faith of the user isn't a factor, a sorcerer receives a penalty when using them. A strong indication that their power is demonic in nature and they receive a small taint on their souls, making holy symbols less useful in their hands.

While on the subject of crosses, the rules around them were written when only the 4 original professions existed. Do they need revision? Should a warlock or an elementalist also receive a penalty? Does a priest receive a bonus?

It's probably like this: vampires etc all buy into the same mass hysteria that the believers themselves do, so they can't enter consecrated ground (which are always clearly marked) or are repelled by crosses because everybody knows that's what happens. If this wasn't the case, the fight against evil would be easy; just get a bunch of priests (doesn't matter how dodgy) to consecrate the whole world. All the demons and other undesirables etc would explode or get shot into space.

Holy water is less obvious so is less effective. You can imagine some dimwitted hellspawn getting splashed with some and not reacting until your adventurer clears his throat and points to the holy trademark on the bottle, at which point Mr Demon starts screeching "it burns!"

Cheers,

-Kyle

You are making the presumption that only a priest can consecrate something. Things can become consecrated just through belief and use - this would actually be the typical way for a place to become consecrated, through the combined faith of all the believers accumulating over time. Otherwise, as you mention, there is nothing to stop a team of devout priests consecrating everything left right and centre.

Maybe theres some limiting factor that prevents mass production of 'holy water'. Notice how priests loved brewing? Maybe there is some unspeakable process in creation of this stuff....

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Also, consider that many of the DW rules are 'dumbed down' or 'simplified' in explanation and only really cover typical scenarios.

For example, what happens if you present a cross to a blind vampire? If he can't see it, does it still have power? Could a vampire just close his eyes and take the blind fighting penalty to circumvent the cross. Does it have to be an actual holy cross, or would two sticks held at right angles do the job? Can an elf (which has no soul) use a cross? Surely if a sorcerer takes a penalty, a soulless being like an elf would be even less able to call on its power. Would a cross of the true faith affect a vampire that followed a differing faith in life? Or a holy symbol of another faith if presented to a Coradian vampire?

Etc. Etc.

While rationalising and formalising rules such as 'what are consecrated items and how do they impact the soulless' might detract somewhat from the atmosphere of DW, they are useful for determining how the world of Legend actually works. If a games master keeps the actual rules used secret from the players (given that there may be a broad set of possible rules to choose from), he can help retain that mystery that is otherwise coloured somewhat by player knowledge.