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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:18 am 
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Cobwebbed Dragon wrote:
And you don't want to get me started on raw power - possibly the worst thing to be introduced into the second edition!



No kidding. A departure from the original book 6 rules. It was bad enough to have assassins which seemed to compel the authors to add 'skills of the almighty'. Next you know we have the warlock which doesn't have much in the way of actual real life historical basis. If people feel challenged by the elementalist, thats because they didn't have the overwhelming firepower of later classes.

Thats why the sapper is challenging in early levels, and if pushed for time.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:24 am 
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Kharille wrote:
Cobwebbed Dragon wrote:
And you don't want to get me started on raw power - possibly the worst thing to be introduced into the second edition!

No kidding. A departure from the original book 6 rules. It was bad enough to have assassins which seemed to compel the authors to add 'skills of the almighty'. Next you know we have the warlock which doesn't have much in the way of actual real life historical basis. If people feel challenged by the elementalist, thats because they didn't have the overwhelming firepower of later classes.

Thats why the sapper is challenging in early levels, and if pushed for time.

The introduction of new non-combat professions in the Players' Guide really helps refocus Dragon Warriors as a role-playing game. Raw power just seemed to want to make DW a D&D combat-clone and absolutely not in keeping with DW's low fantasy, low magic, folkloric feel. I appreciate those high-fantasy elements needed to be included in the original edition to make it marketable, but 2nd ed (or 1.1) was an ideal opportunity to moderate those elements, not expand on them.

Anyway, you got me started, so this rant is your own fault ;). But look how restrained I'm being by limiting myself to a single paragraph - I deserve a medal...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:24 pm 
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I think one of the real killers for elementalists is that they do not start with their elemental focus


Yes. Very much so. One of the first “goals” for any Elementalist must be to secure an elemental focus.

Quote:
And you don't want to get me started on raw power - possibly the worst thing to be introduced into the second edition!


As written in the 2nd Edition Rulebook, it is quite massively overpowered.
(And yes, very much of the "blam-blam" school of role-playing.)

I have had my players face an Earth Elementalist created using both Raw Power (as written in the Player’s Guide) and the “no limit” to spell level. While the Elementalist proved a challenge, he was far from all-powerful (despite being given – unreliable – support from a fay creature). What the fight showed was:
a) The revised Raw Power does not inflict sufficient damage to be crippling,
b) It chews up MP at an alarming rate,
c) As does casting higher level spells.

On balance, the Elementalist is better off not using Raw Power and, instead, making creative use of the spells they have…
(However, the players didn't know what they were facing. The novelty made it worthwhile.)

I'm not entirely sold on Raw Power. I think I will need to play-test it some more to decide one way or the other.*
* The Player's Guide version, obviously. The one in the Rulebook is clearly overpowered.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:31 am 
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Long ago I experimented with this rule and it works pretty well, after a fashion:

An Elementalist can cast a spell above their level, but their chance of success is equal to their level divided by the spell's level. Therefore a first level Elementalist casting a second level spell has a 50% chance of success, or casting a tenth level spell has a 10% chance of success (assuming they can muster the extra MP somehow...). A ninth level Elementalist casting the same spell has a 90% chance of success.

If a spell fails it either simply doesn't work, or it backfires in some way. This is a matter of how badly it fails and how sadistic the GM is. High level spells backfiring can be truly horrific.

You don't need a table to understand all this although it helps when trying to work out the chance for a (say) sixth level Elementalist casting a seventh level spell or whatever; I don't do division in my head very well...

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:49 am 
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Cobwebbed Dragon wrote:
Starkad wrote:
As written, you wonder how low-rank Elementalists survived and got the experience necessary to reach higher Ranks. Balancing them is proving a long and arduous process.

I think one of the real killers for elementalists is that they do not start with their elemental focus and, without it, their spells cost double magic points. So if you're unfortunate enough not to be able to afford one from your starting florins (2-20), most first rank elementalists will be limited to casting one spell one their first adventure.


I confess I totally ignored these elemental focii when I was a GM. Not only did they seem arbitrary and an unjustified limitation on an already weak profession, but it was not always clear how they were used (does the Air Elementalist have to play his harp? Does the Earth Elementalist have to hold his staff or is it OK just to have it on his person?) and they were quite unbalanced; to understand what I mean by unbalanced consider:

Earth Elementalist: Pick up any old fine root staff or pay 5f for one
Air Elementalist: A frikkin Aeolian Harp costing 100f
Water: Crystal phial of pure spring water (10f)
Fire: Volcanic rock amulet (5f)
Darkness: Basically unobtainable Orb of Darkness!!!!!!

There's not much consistency over how easy to obtain or how cheap the focii are, and not providing them as original equipment is totally bizarre to me; its like sending a Knight out at Rank 1 without his armour.

There are far more interesting ways to make Elementalists distinctive.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:12 am 
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WodenKrait wrote:
Cobwebbed Dragon wrote:
Starkad wrote:
As written, you wonder how low-rank Elementalists survived and got the experience necessary to reach higher Ranks. Balancing them is proving a long and arduous process.

I think one of the real killers for elementalists is that they do not start with their elemental focus and, without it, their spells cost double magic points. So if you're unfortunate enough not to be able to afford one from your starting florins (2-20), most first rank elementalists will be limited to casting one spell one their first adventure.

I confess I totally ignored these elemental foci when I was a GM.

The one and only time I played elementalists as-written, I included them as part of the elementalist's starting profession (so not really as-written, then, but you know what I mean...).

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:03 am 
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I included them as part of the elementalist's starting profession (so not really as-written, then, but you know what I mean...).


Same here - it's the only way to make the profession playable.

That said, if the character then lost (or broke) their focus, they then had to get a new one.

Incidentally (and you may know this already), an aeolian harp (or wind harp) isn't the same as a lyre - it's basically a hollow box with strings. Not sure how it's played...
(Image attached)


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Aeolian Harp.jpg
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:07 am 
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Starkad wrote:
Quote:
I included them as part of the elementalist's starting profession (so not really as-written, then, but you know what I mean...).


Same here - it's the only way to make the profession playable.

That said, if the character then lost (or broke) their focus, they then had to get a new one.

Incidentally (and you may know this already), an aeolian harp (or wind harp) isn't the same as a lyre - it's basically a hollow box with strings. Not sure how it's played...
(Image attached)


Its supposed to be played by the wind, not by a human.

Basically a stringed version of wind chimes.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:13 am 
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Damian May wrote:
Starkad wrote:
Quote:
I included them as part of the elementalist's starting profession (so not really as-written, then, but you know what I mean...).


Same here - it's the only way to make the profession playable.

That said, if the character then lost (or broke) their focus, they then had to get a new one.

Incidentally (and you may know this already), an aeolian harp (or wind harp) isn't the same as a lyre - it's basically a hollow box with strings. Not sure how it's played...
(Image attached)


Its supposed to be played by the wind, not by a human.

Basically a stringed version of wind chimes.


I generally allowed PCs to create their own foci items at the cost listed, though I did adjust down the cost of the harp a bit...cos they're really not that hard to make. I assumed Darkness Elementalists either made the long trek to Nem or, more commonly, murderered another Darkness Elementalist/pillaged the corpse of a killed Darkness Elementalist.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:24 am 
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I assumed Darkness Elementalists.... murdered another Darkness Elementalist/pillaged the corpse of a killed Darkness Elementalist.

That would be in keeping with the general outlook of the Profession. :twisted:

It would also mean that PC Darkness Elementalist (if you ever have any) would be constantly looking over their shoulder to see who's after their Orb...
(Although a generous GM might note that the only other profession which can start with people on their trail also gets extra XP - q.v. Assassins, pgs. 53 &54 of the new DW rulebook.)

Quote:
I did adjust down the cost of the harp a bit...cos they're really not that hard to make.

If interested, here's a little article on aeolian harps (and how to make them) that I've just stumbled upon (q.v. attached)...


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AeolianHarpsHowToMakeGrimm2013.jpg
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