Dragon Warriors

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:25 am 
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I've always made considerable use of the Orc in my Dragon Warriors games. I used them as described in the original book - the archetypal henchman of evil, found in the service of many masters. And I really loved the picture of them that went with the description. It came as something of a surprise to me when I discovered that a lot of Dragon Warriors GMs apparently felt that the Orc somehow didn't belong in Dragon Warriors (somewhere along the line, I have got the impression that Dave Morris is of this opinion himself). They are 'too Tolkien' and, perhaps, only wound up in the game because in the mid 1980s, a mainstream FRPG without orcs would have been too radical. Or something.

I know the stereotypical orc of the RPG world is largely a creation of Tolkien - that's a valid point - and I know that a lot of the other monsters of Dragon Warriors harken back to older ideas, legends, and mythology. But that picture in Book 1 made me feel right from the start that the Orcs of the Dragon Warriors world were not Tolkien Orcs, but something different.

What do others think of the Orc? And are there any other monsters that some people don't think work in Dragon Warriors or think work very well (I have a soft spot for the Caitshee, I must confess).

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:34 am 
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I don't really use them. I did a version of them for the wiki as the remnants of ancient peoples in the hill caves of some southern lands but I'm not 100% happy with it.

The can work I suppose as slightly more 'earthly' goblins, perhaps isolated groups of fae that have grown to close to the mortal world.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:55 am 
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I don't really use them, either - they're a bit too fantastic for me. If I want henchmen, I just use people and there are plenty enough selfish, ambitious, ignorant and\or cruel people out there not to need to put an orc in that role. Whenever I'm considering using a fantasy monster or race, I ask myself whether the same could be accomplished by using a human character instead, so I only use fantastic creatures and races where I'm looking for that additional otherworldly impact - the twisted remnants of a blasphemous sorceries, tortured by their condition but bound to the will of the sorcerer who created him, unable to end his misery. That kind of thing.

Also, using a fantasy creature gives the characters carte blanche to kill it, whereas there may be repercussions for killing a person - they have families, there are laws, etc. Killing an orc can be done with almost no consequence, but killing an evil knight is something that needs to be planned and considered.

As for the fantasy elements I do tend to use - I think undead make great guardians of dungeons, because they don't need to eat, so I tend to use those more than anything else.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:23 pm 
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I used orcs a lot. But I became sympathetic to their cause. Somehow I just think they're ill disciplined primitives who can live off the land and live off each other. In one way, a most efficient race to dominate wars. I did envision a scenario where although elves can hold their own in forests and dwarves in mountainous terrain, the orcs could otherwise dominate any terrain better than any others in non native terrain.

The warhammer orc appearance creeps to mind...


I suppose you could substitute other races and a lot of good gaming can be done with lots of evil humans... still, I thought the point of fantasy games was to deal with new humanoids.

I did throw in a few scenarios in those early 90's where the players could befriend orcs. Don't have to hate them all the time.

I'm not too concerned about amnesty international values, more Churchill and less Gandhi.....

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:11 pm 
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I really don't like orcs in legend - I don't think I've ever used them. Goblins, on the other hand, I use with gay abandon! Particularly when I want to capture all the party or put them in a position where they need rescuing.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:52 pm 
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Kharille wrote:
I suppose you could substitute other races and a lot of good gaming can be done with lots of evil humans... still, I thought the point of fantasy games was to deal with new humanoids.

The D&D approach to the fantastic races like elves, dwarves, orcs, etc, is to make them one-dimensional aspects of a human. For example (and I know I'm simplifying a little...), elves like living in forests, dwarfs are grumpy, orcs are strong and stupid, etc. Actually, there's nothing wrong with having a fantasy game where tribes of nomads live in a great forest, or mountain-dwelling people that have had to scratch out a living in the bare mountains might be taciturn and insular when dealing with others, but they can still be human - the spectrum of personalities and communities is fully-represented by the human condition. So why use an orc?

The fantasy elements are very low-key in Dragon Warriors - tales of orcs are more about scaring children with stories of woodsmen that never returned from exploring the dark forest on the outskirts of the village than they are an everyday threat. Probably no-one has actually seen an orc (think Gardener Jack in Shadows on the Mist), and whilst people might genuinely believe that orcs live over the hills on the horizon, or in the dark woods, they are a rare and fantastic occurrence.

In FRPGs like WFRP, magic colleges exist in every major city and elves wander the streets - the fantastic elements of FRPG have become everyday occurrences and have subsequently lost their power to inspire awe or fear. In D&D, so many publications have sought to explore the lifecycles and ecologies of almost every creature in the monster manual that there is no mystery in the fantasy elements any more and nothing to explore. DW is different - orcs, elves, dragons, etc., are just rumour, superstition, heresy, and distant history twisted by generations of oral tradition. Mention of an orc might even be enough to cause panic, for surely would such fantastic creatures grace the civilised lands again that doom must be upon us (or worse)!

Lord Karick wrote:
Goblins, on the other hand, I use with gay abandon! Particularly when I want to capture all the party or put them in a position where they need rescuing.

[I've figured out how to do multiquote :)]

Goblins as mischievous fey spirits that inhabit the wildlands where the superstitious folk refuse to tread are very folk-lorey and fitting of Legend, but not as waves of enemies through which our plucky heroes must hack with their swords and axes, but as the dangerous amoral pranksters that must be outwitted or appeased. They may capture the heroes, who must then bargain for their freedom and become embroiled in fae politics that have churned for centuries. That's far more dangerous (and more fitting a challenge) for mighty Dragon Warriors than 2d6 orcs in a 10'x10' room that also contains a locked (and trapped) chest to which no-one is carrying a key.

Well, anyway, that's just my opinion. And I've waffled for long enough. Thursday night is my gaming night and I still need to eat dinner :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:05 pm 
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Just a thought, didn't want to start a new topic, but its annoying that Orcs have darksight. Maybe some form of gloom sight or as far as I'm concerned, normal vision would do. In Darksight, it just makes it pointless for them to carry torches. Also imagine the confusion with shooting rules when they shoot in total darkness and can't shoot anything in broad daylight.

I can see some unfortunate situations where orcs ambush the players at night and it would be one sided. and if the players catch the orcs during the day, the orcs couldn't see where to run.

Maybe it would be better to give orcs normal vision?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:44 pm 
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Kharille wrote:
Just a thought, didn't want to start a new topic, but its annoying that Orcs have darksight. Maybe some form of gloom sight or as far as I'm concerned, normal vision would do. In Darksight, it just makes it pointless for them to carry torches. Also imagine the confusion with shooting rules when they shoot in total darkness and can't shoot anything in broad daylight.

I can see some unfortunate situations where orcs ambush the players at night and it would be one sided. and if the players catch the orcs during the day, the orcs couldn't see where to run.

Maybe it would be better to give orcs normal vision?


My reading of darksight is that a creature that sees in darkness may be dazzled by bright light, but not necessarily blinded by it (i.e., they still have some limited vision, even in bright light). The bestiary description of orcs recommends that they suffer only -1 to Attack and Defence in bright light, although this might be a throwback to the old Book 1, before vision types were part of the rule system (introduced in book 4).

This is just the kind of lore a canny group of adventurers would find out and exploit, if they know they may face an orc-at-arms in their adventures.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:00 pm 
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I never questioned the use of Orcs in DW until just a few years ago; I supposed I was normalised into their existence by Tolkein, Fighting Fantasy and Warhammer. Latterly I questioned their "henchthings of evil" concept. Because I favour a naturalistic, materialistic concept of the fantasy world, orcs are just another intelligent race that evolved to its current state and are no more intrinsically evil than humans. They are less intellectually sophisticated, perhaps, and their cultures (note the plural) tend to be more harsh and primitive, but to conceptualise them as the embodiment of strife and cruelty is sheer racism.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:55 pm 
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I think of them as Klingons. Maybe they have a harsher, warrior culture, or just one created from harsh survival conditions. They'll thrive under difficult circumstances and can thrive on cannabalism and eating things other would not. Just as pigs have a super efficient digestive system.

I've grown sympathetic to them, and I can see them surviving in extreme conditions.

I also think hit and run tactics fit them great. If we revised the combat disengagement rules slightly... things would work out fine...

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