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 Post subject: Re: Unbalanced in DW
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:47 pm 
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Kharille wrote:
Wonder whether there is a roleplaying 'situation' to make it awkward to wear armour. Same way you get climate problems, maybe some environmental situation that makes it awkward. Does +3 armour need a lot of maintenance? Does it rust? Or is it naturally some kind of stainless steel?

Maybe you can create more aquatic environments, marshlands, marine adventures...


Whilst I can't comment on how enchanting steel affects how quickly it rusts, normal steel plate would start rusting very quickly and ideally needs daily maintenance - one of the reasons most knights would keep squires around to ensure the armour was regularly polished and oiled. Sweaty knights and damp air is a perfect combination to cause rust.

As for environmental factors that might affect when and whether a knight wears plate, it's worth mentioning that he certainly wouldn't be sleeping in it (although I find night-time encounters are not something you can pull off regularly as a GM without it coming across as unfair - one of the benefits of the knight profession is that the knight can wear plate, so depriving him of this advantage too often isn't going to sit right with the players).

You should also think about the Knight's code of honour - he may not be prepared to strike a woman, or a child, or something, so may hesitate in a combat against someone who is (or appears to be) a woman or child. Also, the knight may be duty-bound to accept someone's surrender, and then he's stuck with the dilemma of what to do with a potentially dangerous prisoner who will likely try to escape\kill him at every opportunity.

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 Post subject: Re: Unbalanced in DW
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:02 pm 
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There is one thing that troubles me. Orcs have darksight, so they see like undead. Problem is, that means that they can function perfectly with no light and broad daylight blinds them. I thought daylight was meant to be unpleasant, but to totally blind orcs in broad daylight? Anyway, my point being that Orcs would enjoy a bonus in utter darkness, and players might be finding themselves ambushed in total darkness.

I suppose players know when they need to use their armour, as much as they would bring a sword to an underwurlde, and maybe leave it when going to non combat situations.


Another reason to expand on terrain rules. I'd suppose Knights don't want to walk thigh deep sunk in mud... as it was in Agincourt... I was thinking of other issues like overheating, maybe just having a bonfire can make wearing armour unbearable, but then again, I know walking within 30ft of a 10ft bonfire is unbearable from personal experience....

Maybe there are other environmental considerations. Perhaps it is unpleasant to be running around Thuland in full plate all the time with all the rain... its meant to keep off sword blows and not ward off the elements...

Oh and maybe they are so distinct in appearance, every local lord and bully might want to persuade them to part with it. best to put it in for certain formal occasions like visiting orc lairs and undead infested churches....

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 Post subject: Re: Unbalanced in DW
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:26 am 
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Kharille wrote:
As for environmental factors that might affect when and whether a knight wears plate, it's worth mentioning that he certainly wouldn't be sleeping in it


I can't speak for plate, but I can attest from personal experience that mail is not too uncomfortable to lie down and rest in and I can easily imagine those who are accustomed to wearing it sleeping in it (perhaps a little fitfully) for a night or two if the alternative is being ambushed in the dark with nowt to protect them but a pair of britches.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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 Post subject: Re: Unbalanced in DW
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:07 am 
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Like most fantasy RPGs, Dragon Warriors struggles to balance the fighters (who have a steady level of firepower that can be used all day) with the spellcasters (who have a much higher level of firepower that can only be used for some of the day). It wouldn't be so imbalanced if the game system had a counterbalance, such as providing for non-combat conflict resolution - but as an early 1980s era game, there's only really the combat engine to work with.

As a point of comparison, Lace and Steel (which is a late 1980s era game, from memory), used the same resolution system for combat, magic, and witty repartee (social conflicts - it was an early modern game, as might be expected from the name) - making all three equally important ways for a character to be powerful and have a distinct role in play.

The material from Dave Morris' blog about having a stature mechanic that's more important in determining success and failure than specific abilities is an interesting attempt to balance out the imbalances in the combat engine, but given Dave has also said on his blog that they switched to using GURPS for games set in Legend years (possibly decades) ago, it wasn't well fleshed out.

Cheers,

Gary Johnson

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 Post subject: Re: Unbalanced in DW
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:22 am 
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Its an age-old debate in the hobby but there are pros and cons to having social interaction governed by game mechanics (to whatever degree) in a roleplaying game. The pros are it evens out the experience of players who are not as socially skilled or perspicacious as their characters with players who are the opposite, and gives the GM some means to resolve NPC interactions with the players a little more objectively. The cons are it kind of strikes at the heart of what an RPG is all about, in that you might roleplay brilliantly but be undone by a duff dice roll. This is liable to encourage gamist playing which should be discouraged.

A balance must be struck in a way that is not an issue for combat or magic, neither of which has a real-life counterpart in the game experience itself (unless you're larping or something, and that is a bridge too far for me...)

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-Kyle


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 Post subject: Re: Unbalanced in DW
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:04 pm 
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Fatigue rules are cumbersome to implement. You'd only need to impose them on a childish player. I think a mature player would do what is necessary to roleplay what is realistic and not to dispute whether they can bear with extreme cold or hunger. If they insist on wearing full plate to banquest like they did in the 81' excalibur film....

The guy surely can't be wearing +3 armour at all times....

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 Post subject: Re: Unbalanced in DW
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:24 am 
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WodenKrait wrote:
Its an age-old debate in the hobby but there are pros and cons to having social interaction governed by game mechanics (to whatever degree) in a roleplaying game. The pros are it evens out the experience of players who are not as socially skilled or perspicacious as their characters with players who are the opposite, and gives the GM some means to resolve NPC interactions with the players a little more objectively. The cons are it kind of strikes at the heart of what an RPG is all about, in that you might roleplay brilliantly but be undone by a duff dice roll. This is liable to encourage gamist playing which should be discouraged.


I approach this by making the roll inform the roleplaying. I introduced Guile and Conviction (work the same as Attack and Defence) into my game - just as I don't expect the players to demonstrate their combat prowess to determine the outcome of their characters' battles, I think it's unfair that a character's social ability is purely determined by the player's. BUT, if you (secretly) roll the outcome of the encounter first (using Guile and Conviction), you can still play out the encounter. For example, if the character is haggling with a merchant or tying to talk themselves out of a tight spot with a guard, make the guile\conviction roll and then play out the encounter - the merchant\guard\whatever will either be swayed by the characters arguments or not, but it doesn't stop them having the roleplaying conversation. The roll is made in secret, so the player doesn't know if he's succeeded and, if you like, you can allow a good argument by the player to move the result of the roll a smidge in his favour (potentially turning a rolled failure into a roleplaying success). For players that do not have the confidence or skills to argue their way out of situation with a guard, you can still play out the encounter with the straight roll.

I find it works really well (and I do a similar thing for Perception, too).

Guile: http://cobwebbedforest.co.uk/library/ab ... p?qs=guile

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 Post subject: Re: Unbalanced in DW
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:58 am 
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Quote:
The roll is made in secret, so the player doesn't know if he's succeeded and, if you like, you can allow a good argument by the player to move the result of the roll a smidge in his favour (potentially turning a rolled failure into a roleplaying success).


I think this is the key to keeping the appropriate balance. As long as the rule doesn't become a millstone to roleplaying, it is probably worth it.

Of course, once you have a mechanic for social interaction this might actually enhance the roleplaying experience. A player who isn't sure how to play his character could make him a charmless clot if he has a low "Guile" skill (great name!) or really chew the scenery if he has a high one.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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 Post subject: Re: Unbalanced in DW
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:43 am 
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WodenKrait wrote:
Quote:
The roll is made in secret, so the player doesn't know if he's succeeded and, if you like, you can allow a good argument by the player to move the result of the roll a smidge in his favour (potentially turning a rolled failure into a roleplaying success).


I think this is the key to keeping the appropriate balance. As long as the rule doesn't become a millstone to roleplaying, it is probably worth it.

Of course, once you have a mechanic for social interaction this might actually enhance the roleplaying experience. A player who isn't sure how to play his character could make him a charmless clot if he has a low "Guile" skill (great name!) or really chew the scenery if he has a high one.


I hate it when rules get in the way of the game. Not every spell, combat and skill check needs a die roll, so I only roll dice when it's important to do so - if it suits the narrative, then we just get on with it. The amount of time taken at the gaming table spent rolling dice to resolve combat is disproportionate to the importance of combat to the game. It's a role-playing game and not a wargame, after all.

Try recording one of your average sessions and then time all the non-story elements, such as rolling dice, flipping through rulebooks, etc. You'll find that you can really improve your sessions by reducing dice rolls and ensuring everyone has some reference guides to hand (you can download some basic guides from the Cobwebbed Forest if you don't want to produce your own - http://cobwebbedforest.co.uk/downloads/).

And I take requests if there's something you'd like me to make available :)

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 Post subject: Re: Unbalanced in DW
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:08 am 
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Quote:
Not every spell, combat and skill check needs a die roll, so I only roll dice when it's important to do so - if it suits the narrative, then we just get on with it

I think we have a similar concept of what roleplaying should be, notwithstanding some of the extremely elaborate house rules I've created in the past...

Awesome work on the resources on the Cobwebbed Forest by the way sir. I am constantly amazed at how much great stuff is on there when I go poking around. I only wish I had a game going so I could use it...

Cheers,

-Kyle


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