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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:47 pm 
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A conversation on the General Discord Channel...

CobwebbedDragon Yesterday at 7:52 AM
I’m interested in the methodology used to calculate population numbers for Albion and Ellesland and then how you arrived at ranked characters and breakdown etc. was it using random encounter or background tables from the rule book in part?

@Nigel It came out of a new essay I published on the Cobwebbed Forest.
https://cobwebbedforest.co.uk/Essays/Demographics.php

Nigel Yesterday at 8:06 AM
For those playing at home I promise that wasn’t a Dorothy Dixer question!!! Nice @CobwebbedDragon will check it out

simonbarns Yesterday at 8:17 AM
That I had to Google..

Nigel Yesterday at 10:51 AM
Just googled it myself - didn’t realise it was largely an Australian expression...by jingo cobber I didn’t realise you mob of limey galahs wouldn’t catch me drift...
Starkad Yesterday at 11:41 AM

@Nigel It came out of a new essay I published on the Cobwebbed Forest.
https://cobwebbedforest.co.uk/Essays/Demographics.php

@CobwebbedDragon It makes interesting reading. What's of particular interest is that the 'speciality professions' (e.g. Elementalist, Warlock) are so few that there's a good chance a character in those professions would know many of the others - if not in person, then perhaps by reputation. This is a great opportunity for GMs to sprinkle a few NPC 'contacts' in their campaign area... (Not all these contacts need be particularly friendly, of course.)

CobwebbedDragon Yesterday at 11:53 AM
There's also an interesting data point regarding the number of sorcerers, which potentially puts to bed the discussion around how much the open practice of sorcery is persecuted by the church. Were sorcerers persecuted to any great degree, there wouldn't be so many of them.

Starkad Yesterday at 6:06 PM
Personally, I don't agree with the latest trend towards open persecution of Sorcerers by the Church. (1) This is a 10th Century world and the Church will not have reached the summit of its power, (2) there is a huge difference between the real world where Sorcery is but a sham and easy to persecute and dealing with people who can have a real and tangible effect (e.g. Dishearten) on those around them, (3) in a world where magic is real, then there has to be a place for it in God's plan (it can't all be evil), and (4) this "Inquisitorial" approach is simply not fun to play - if that's the game people want, then that's up to them but I don't have to like it (or be involved in it).

simonbarns Yesterday at 6:10 PM
For me it's one thing in a GM's arsenal. There may be some places where the practice of Sorcerery may be persecuted, the next country over may fete them as a divine gift.
Bring me the pilliwinkles..

wimlach Yesterday at 6:21 PM
Given that the seat of power of the Church of the True Faith is in New Selentium, which openly trains sorcerers and warlocks as part of it's military, the trend for inquisition and persecution makes even less sense.

Bonivant (Tahir) Yesterday at 6:21 PM
It's about control really. Any authority, lord, or church would be nervous about groups of powerful Adventurers mooching about changing regimes and such. As long as the Sorcerers have a recognised allegiance, patron, or belief that moderates their behaviour, all is good.

wimlach Yesterday at 6:23 PM
Organisation and control, yes - denunciation, not so much.
Heh - I'm half tempted to do a write-up of the new Pontiff, who is both a bishop and a sorcerer... :slight_smile:

Bonivant (Tahir) Yesterday at 6:45 PM
It could be likened to Tax Avoidance. Everybody does it, as long as you can get away with it, but publically deny doing it.

Starkad Yesterday at 7:59 PM
There are two Seats for the True Faith: the Selentine Church is based in Selentium where the Pontiff lives. The Tamorian Church is based, well, in Tamor – seat of the New Selentine Empire. It is not stated who the head of the Tamorian Church is, so I generally assume it’s the Imperator (rather like in Byzantium), probably with a Patriarch as the ecclesiastical head.
Then there’s the issue of defence against sorcery. Everyone in Legend knows that magic is real, therefore lords would plan for it (if they could). But how do you build a castle to protect from magic? Perhaps the best defence against other magicians is to have one of your own… And thus you get Court Sorcerers. Not only that, but in an era where ‘conspicuous consumption’ is important, being able to afford a Sorcerer might be seen as somewhat prestigious. “Our lord is so important he’s got his own Sorcerer!”

StarkadYesterday at 8:37 PM
Heh - I'm half tempted to do a write-up of the new Pontiff, who is both a bishop and a sorcerer... :slight_smile:
@wimlach Wouldn't it be an irony if one of the greatest repositories of magical tomes in Legend turned out to be the Pontiff's Library in Selentium (the Bibliotheca Apostolica de Pontifice)? After all, the Vatican does keep an extensive library - one in a fantasy world would probably have rather stranger stuff in it...

simonbarns Yesterday at 8:44 PM
It wouldn't be a library on our scale - in 1455 the Vatican's library had 1200 books.

Starkad Yesterday at 9:03 PM
Which is a huge collection in Legend terms. Remember, however, that the Library of Alexandria was said to contain between 40,000 and 400,000 scrolls.
It's not just books (scrolls and codices) either, you'd have land records, grants, records of oaths, appointments, Pontifical edicts (Bulls), records of excommunications, trials, &c., &c...
So, in short, it could very easily be a library on our scale.

Starkad Yesterday at 9:12 PM
(Although Dave Morris did post in his blog that one reason there's a limited number of Sorcerous spells is that the tomes of magic simply haven't survived. There might be many treatises on the various magics, books on theory, records of studies, &c., but actual books of spells might be very, very few indeed.

simonbarns Yesterday at 10:37 PM
Perchance this might be an opportunity to catalogue some of these tomes.

Daganisoraan Yesterday at 10:49 PM
I know its not the same setting, but an easy comparison is with Warhammer Fantasy where all arcane magic users not-registered with the college are openly persecuted and villified due to the temptation of Chaos.

Even without such a big menace like Chaos, in Legend, the Church could still take a similar approach and as its power grows require all pagan sorcerer and warlocks to officially register within the Church. As for the mystic, there already consider almost like living saints. As for Elementalist, I would say fuck'em. They can all burn.

Don't forget its not that hard for a Sorcerer to become a Demonologist or even without that profession still deal in "evil" things. Heck, its not that crazy to imagine that the church sorcerers and warlocks would create variants spells that must be studied to replace certain evil spells and over time, those variant could become the default list of spells. Spells like
-Curse, Disease, Reanimate the Dead, Ressurect (Only god can bring people back to life/unlife), heck even Lesser Healing and Greater Healing could be perceived as interfering with life.
-Phantasm, Destrier, Evil Eye, Battlemaster, Doppelganger (all those spells are akin to summoning demons)

Starkad Yesterday at 10:57 PM
Which is why Sorcerers and the Church will never really get on...
...but what can the Church do if lords point out that their "court sorcerer" protects them from the enchantments of another? The priest can bluster as much as he wants, but lords can be very pragmatic in that respect. And, again, magic in Legend is real and its effects well-documented.
One thing the Church might do (if we run with a collection of tomes in the Pontifical Library of Selentium) is charge Sorcerers handsomely for the privilege of consulting such tomes, take down all their details and insist on an oath sworn on the cross that the Sorcerer is a God-fearing man (or somesuch). Thus the Church gets to know who's who and, therefore, their weaknesses...

Pontaniak Yesterday at 11:16 PM
I definetely think Warlocks are the most troublesome. Sorcerers if they are careful, get themselves a powerful employer or sequester themselves and only use certain spells from their arsenal can come off as relatively harmless, Elementalists are fairly strongly tied to the Old Faiths which doesn't help them at all, Mystics can just go their whole life with no one ever knowing they were actually using magic for 95% of their spells, whereas fully half of the warlocks spells look like someone channeling Old Nick himself.

Jimbo (GM) Yesterday at 11:26 PM
When I ran Elementalist to give them an edge I let them cast spells using only a vocal component

Starkad Yesterday at 11:47 PM
I definetely think Warlocks are the most troublesome.
@Pontaniak They fit organisations better. Thus you'll find them in the New Selentine Empire. @Dreadnought has them embedded within the Knight Capellars (which also happens to fit nicely into my version of Legend too)... I suspect you'd get far fewer "individual" warlocks off on a wander (unless they are those "Kiai Masters" of Yamato mentioned in DW book 6 - or page 205 of the new rulebook).

Dreadnought Yesterday at 11:50 PM
I'll have to add to this discussion later :slight_smile: For the moment, my only chance this week to go shopping must intervene

simonbarns Yesterday at 11:52 PM
Happy shopping @Dreadnought :)

Pontaniak Today at 12:02 AM
When I ran Elementalist to give them an edge I let them cast spells using only a vocal component
@Jimbo (GM) I don't even have that for them, theres a couple that require a specific action/ritual but mostly weird stuff just happens around them.
@Pontaniak They fit organisations better. Thus you'll find them in the New Selentine Empire. @Dreadnought has them embedded within the Knight Capellars (which also happens to fit nicely into my version of Legend too)... I suspect you'd get far fewer "individual" warlocks off on a wander (unless they are those "Kiai Masters" of Yamato mentioned in DW book 6 - or page 205 of the new rulebook).
@Starkad I tend not to have many Warlocks in my games as over the years I've noted they tend to attract the power gamer/murder hobos like flies to shit. So most of mine have been individuals with something unatural in their family history, or they are similar to the Devil Marked in CD. But I very rarely set games in the Empire, mine tend to be more far flung.

Daganisoraan Today at 12:11 AM
I'm currently reading the different series of the french comic Elfes, Nains, etc. Each series would translate to Elves, Dwarves.

Anyway, I'm going to avoid spoilers as much as possible, but at some point the human lords make a deal with all the mages on the planet to avoid a war between them. From now on, each mage must work for a king/lord.

Long story short, big things have happened and people realized that mages can't make war among themselves for power. So instead, they became vassal to their lords.

Such a thing could become a reality with the above talk of the church and kings vs magic users. Just like the church could requister all sorcerers/warlocks to be registered, they could also limit them to specific type of work, having to swear fealty to either a lord or the church and only fight for those interest.

Starkad Today at 12:13 AM
@Starkad I tend not to have many Warlocks in my games as over the years I've noted they tend to attract the power gamer/murder hobos like flies to shit.
@Pontaniak There is that tendency... I've been lucky in not having encountered too many such players. But I simply restrict their numbers - like you, based on background; but without the need for an unnatural link. (Otherwise this raises questions about Sorcerers too...)

Daganisoraan Today at 12:15 AM
Its been a while since I gamed with power gamer and murder hobo. Well, I'm kinda expecting a minimum of power gaming in pathfinder/D&D but that's how my gaming groups play those games.

Starkad Today at 12:19 AM
Such a thing could become a reality with the above talk of the church and kings vs magic users...
@Daganisoraan With magic being real in Legend and having been around since before the founding of Kaikuhuru, society would have had to accommodate magicians in some way. Either that, or they would have disappeared by now.

In the years I have GM’ed I’ve noticed a definite progression among Sorcerers regarding how they might be treated (you can see it among the party, and it can therefore reflect in the wider populace):
Upto Rank 3 they are simply dodgy individuals. The Sorcerer must be cautious.
Rank 4 – 5 they become people to be respected or treated with caution. The Sorcerer is now slightly less vulnerable.
Rank 6+ they are now definitely to be respected. They don’t have to be liked, but they can’t simply be mistreated with impunity. The Sorcerer is now a person of Importance…

Daganisoraan Today at 12:24 AM
Well, the rank progression vs the respect such characters gain kinda apply to all professions. But of course more for spellcasters since they can insta-kill people with so much ease. And such respect applies to many other RPG systems with special powers. The stronger your special powers are, fewer and fewer people are going to consider your past (slave, serf, etc), gender and origin to be important or at least to be contested because NPCs that understand your power will know what can happen if they insult you too much.

Starkad Today at 12:27 AM
Well, the rank progression vs the respect such characters gain kinda apply to all professions. But of course more for spellcasters since they can insta-kill people with so much ease.
@Daganisoraan Absolutely. But while with warriors the distinction might be more subtle (a Rank 3 Knight who is a Baron is someone who's going to have be given the same kind of respect you'd give to a high-ranking magician), the Sorcerer suddenly gets access to interesting spells. The deadly ones (e.g. Dishearten) are the obvious ones, but Rank 6 is the first time a Sorcerer can dispel another magician's magic... Or infallibly heal disease.

Its been a while since I gamed with power gamer and murder hobo. Well, I'm kinda expecting a minimum of power gaming in pathfinder/D&D but that's how my gaming groups play those games.

@Daganisoraan The way those games are structured, with monsters being rated against a party of a certain rank expected to have certain abilities and items, they lend themselves to a modicum of "power gaming". I tend to think of them more as wargaming RPGs... (Especially when you start considering tactical options like Attacks of Opportunity, &c.)

Pontaniak Today at 12:31 AM
Oh, it has definetely become a bit of a social faux pas to NOT have a court 'sorcerer/conjurer/magus' in MyAlbion currently.....whether that fashion will change in the future is up to the vagaries of fate.

Starkad Today at 12:31 AM
I've always found it interesting that a Sorcerer can Curse at Rank 4, but you need to find a Rank 6 Sorcerer to get rid of that curse... Which means you have to either persuade the Sorcerer who cursed you to lift their spell, or you'll have a longer trek to find an amenable high-ish Rank Sorcerer.

Oh, it has definetely become a bit of a social faux pas to NOT have a court 'sorcerer/conjurer/magus' in MyAlbion currently.....

@Pontaniak "Look at that flea-bitten Lord Pondsbury! Who does he think he is? He can't even afford his own wizard..."

<And that's where I saved it.>


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:58 pm 
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Is there a DW discord??? Is that where the action is these days?

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:54 pm 
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WodenKrait wrote:
Is there a DW discord??? Is that where the action is these days?

Cheers,

-Kyle



You've found it now. Welcome. Msg me if you have any questions.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:59 pm 
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& as a quick adjunct, I'm keen that if we get any long threads on Discord we make the attempt to save for posterity.


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