Dragon Warriors

A discussion forum for the Dragon Warriors RPG and related works
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:17 pm 
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Reaped from the Discord for posterity's sake.

Jimbo (GM)Today at 13:36
I was just discussing the idea of Paths v Skills with @simonbarns and we came up with an idea. Instead of picking a collective pool of skills that players can choose, what about expanding on Skills that are available at certain Ranks so players can choose how their character develops, essentially creating their own Path?

CobwebbedDragonToday at 13:42
It depends what you mean by skills - if these are things anyone can learn and don't need to belong to any specific profession to do so (e.g., fletching, foraging, languages, lore, etc.), then there just needs to be a general catalogue of that stuff available to everyone at any rank. If you're referring to exclusive talents for which only some unique characteristic of a profession could entitle them to acquire (esp. relevant to magicker professions, I suspect, but also those with unique social backgrounds), then that's a very different list... If you're planning to put both things in the same list, then you pretty much just exacerbate the mess some of the newer DW profesions are in.

Jimbo (GM)Today at 13:45
The Skills would be for Professions only. It’s not to say NPCs wouldn’t have access to them, ie a Hunter may have Bowyer or Fletcher but do could and NPC whose sole occupation was that.

CobwebbedDragonToday at 13:54
Why couldn't, for example, a mystic learn to fletch arrows?

Jimbo (GM)Today at 13:56
There is no reason that certain skills could be shared by certain professions

CobwebbedDragonToday at 13:58
That's my point - anything that can be learned by anyone (PC, NPC, non-professionals) should just be a skill. Given DW has a sort-of skills system now, the professional "skills" just need turning into skills that anyone can learn, leaving only the professional "talents" to define a character's development within that profession.
Assuming you want to turn DW into a you-can-only-do-it-if-you-have-the-skill/talent system, that is.

Jimbo (GM)Today at 14:17
Well when I said Skills it was as you were saying Talents to be but I see the distinction

CobwebbedDragonToday at 14:54
I think the first step to reforming the paths system would be to create skills for all the things that can be learned as skills (including from the base professions).

Jimbo (GM)Today at 14:56
How do you mean

CobwebbedDragonToday at 16:51
There are lots of skills disguised as profession-specific abilities (e.g., fletching, foraging, etc.) that would be better expressed as skills (in the DW sense of the term - basic, intermediate, advanced). Gather all of these together into a "Skills Handbook" and make then available to any character (PC or NPC) that wants them and that will go a long way to solving the problem.

It doesn't solve the you-need-a-specific-skill-to-do-anything problem, but that would mean going back to more narrative professions than the later, more technical, professions that seem to be the direction of travel in modern DW.

Jimbo (GM)Today at 16:59
Well I was doing something like that with my article on NPCs.

CobwebbedDragonToday at 17:14
One is my gaming principles on my own ruleset is that there is nothing that distinguishes PCs from NPCs. Any rules/development paths that are available to one are available to the other.
Jimbo (GM)Today at 17:33
These NPCs are specific to a Trade such as Carpenter or Farmer. Those who have Jobs not Professions.

CobwebbedDragonToday at 17:48
Perfect. I think it would be great to expand the trade skills - available to all characters.

Bonivant (Tahir)Today at 17:48
Have you read @wimlach regarding his generic DW skills system.

CobwebbedDragonToday at 17:51
There are a few skills systems floating around the Internet. I use a d6 plus ability score plus skill rank (typically 0-4) system. But I think for anything we publish via Red Ruin should be compatible with the canon DW skills system.

Bonivant (Tahir)Today at 17:52
There is a strong arguement for just using GURPS in the Land of Legend.

DaganisoraanToday at 17:52
lol, i'm takling that very problem in my "path" compendium
the skill problem of DW

CobwebbedDragonToday at 17:53
Rules inform a style of play, if your preferred style of play is enabled with the GURPS ruleset, I say knock yourself out!

Bonivant (Tahir)Today at 17:54
I am hoping the Jewelspider Edition will give us a whole new set of opportunities. Release date soon, I hope?

CobwebbedDragonToday at 17:55
I like the flavour of Jewelspider, which I plan to encapsulate on my own games, but I doubt I'll adopt many of the rules.

Jimbo (GM)Today at 17:56
lol, i'm takling that very problem in my "path" compendium

@Daganisoraan are you using skills to replace paths?

DaganisoraanToday at 17:56
My solution, there's no skill to do things similar to skills from D&D. All such checks remain characteristics based. What changes ate the assassin, hunter an d knave who created the problem in the first place by having skills like pilfer and pick lock

Jimbo (GM)Today at 17:58
I suppose skills like that are very niche

DaganisoraanToday at 17:58
Here's my question: Why is it that only the assassin can pilfer? What happen if a knight wants to do that?
My solution is to change how pilfer and all other similar skills work from d% rolls and d20 vs perception or rank rolls to characteristic rolls

Jimbo (GM)Today at 18:00
I see your problem though I’d argue certain Professions can’t Pilfer such as Knights due to standing in society

DaganisoraanToday at 18:00
fuck society

Jimbo (GM)Today at 18:00
The problem is in DW you can’t.

DaganisoraanToday at 18:00
when i roleplay i can find a reason for anything

CobwebbedDragonToday at 18:00
I think the case is that I knight wouldn't, not that they couldn't if they wanted to try.

Jimbo (GM)Today at 18:01
Exactly.
Or for example a sorcerer could but would like rely more on magic

CobwebbedDragonToday at 18:01
A hunter's forage or fletching is another example of something everyone should be able to learn to do.

DaganisoraanToday at 18:01
forget would, should, could. what happens when he must
currently, for pilfer, the system as no solution. i provide one, and easy fir that matters. everything works the same way
i said knight. but it could be a sorcerer or even a serf

Jimbo (GM)Today at 18:04
So it’s more that you are opening every skill to every profession

DaganisoraanToday at 18:04
or that frickin son of the king, who is a knight and pilfer for the fun of it

CobwebbedDragonToday at 18:05
What I like about pick lock, particularly, is that it has a mechanic for taking time to perform an action. Ignore the "can I pick a lock? " question for now. A skills system that cbt prevent your character from acting a certain way, but instead answers the question "how long does it take?" For example, the climb skill doesn't answer the question, "can I climb the wall?" It tells me how long it will take.

Jimbo (GM)Today at 18:05
No I’ve accepted that. What I’m asking is are you allowing a character who isn’t sorcerer the ability to make potions?

DaganisoraanToday at 18:06
no

Jimbo (GM)Today at 18:06
So what skills can you learn

DaganisoraanToday at 18:06
theres a difference between the magical stuff and and mundane actions

CobwebbedDragonToday at 18:07
A system like that doesn't prevent characters from taking any actions, with a guaranteed chance of success (sort of), so keeps the narrative going, but the random outcomes of actions still have an impact on the game

DaganisoraanToday at 18:07
my solution simply use a system that was already in the rules.

CobwebbedDragonToday at 18:08
No I’ve accepted that. What I’m asking is are you allowing a character who isn’t sorcerer the ability to make potions?
@Jimbo (GM) sounds like the difference between skills and abilities. Skills can be learned by anyone and abilities are unique to a profession.

Jimbo (GM)Today at 18:08
What about skills that rely on two characteristics?

DaganisoraanToday at 18:08
pilfer, disguise, forage, etc work like climbing. and for assassin it also work like their climbing skill.

Jimbo (GM)Today at 18:09
I thought a good way to represent how long it takes is by how far you get under your Characteristic ability

DaganisoraanToday at 18:09
untrained = stat roll
skilled = halr rank
double skilled = full rank

CobwebbedDragonToday at 18:10
untrained = stat roll
skilled = halr rank
double skilled = full rank
@Daganisoraan How does that work for skilled non-professionals

Jimbo (GM)Today at 18:11
So say two people with Reflexes 15 and 10 climb a wall, the player with 15 rolls a 12 and the Player with 10 rolls a 5. They both succeed but the player with 10 does it faster as they get 5 under instead of 3 for the other.

DaganisoraanToday at 18:11
i don't care about NPCs. they are gm tools
most npcs don't even have characteristics anyway

Jimbo (GM)Today at 18:13
i don't care about NPCs. they are gm tools
@Daganisoraan they could do
And saying you don’t care doesn’t stop them having Attributes.

CobwebbedDragonToday at 18:14
most npcs don't even have characteristics anyway
@Daganisoraan I'm with you there. There are very few reasons characters need to rely on attributes. Better to make it about the narrative.

DaganisoraanToday at 18:15
its not a question of do they have the stats or not but what best for drama.

Jimbo (GM)Today at 18:16
I feel this is dependant on the way skill systems are created.

DaganisoraanToday at 18:16
when the locksmith come i dont want my gm to lose time calculating his reflex plus pick lock training and the make rolls. i expect the locksmith to open the lock (maybe make a luck roll) and be done with it

CobwebbedDragonToday at 18:16
its not a question of do they have the stats or not but what best for drama.
@Daganisoraan I think that's why I get turned off the newer DW profesions. I don't want a sheet of paper telling me what my character can (or, more precisely, can't) do - the original professions left it up to the players to fill in those gaps and tell a story.

DaganisoraanToday at 18:18
my solution offers that Cob. a return to how things were before the assassin

CobwebbedDragonToday at 18:18
I feel this is dependant on the way skill systems are created.
@Jimbo (GM) I like that the DW skills system isn't just a series of bonuses to attributes, they actually make narrative sense.

Jimbo (GM)Today at 18:18
I think the important thing is everyone has different GM styles.

CobwebbedDragonToday at 18:19
I think the important thing is everyone has different GM styles.
@Jimbo (GM) That was basically my point above that rulesets inform a style of play. Find a ruleset that suits your style and skin Legend with it.

DaganisoraanToday at 18:19
oh 10 years ago i would have wanted a really precise system. but i have learned to let go a lot of things. stop the book keeping to make the stiry advance

Jimbo (GM)Today at 18:23
@Jimbo (GM) That was basically my point above that rulesets inform a style of play. Find a ruleset that suits your style and skin Legend with it.
@CobwebbedDragon I agree, though I feel GMs always like it when someone does things for them.

wimlachToday at 19:04
There are a few skills systems floating around the Internet. I use a d6 plus ability score plus skill rank (typically 0-4) system. But I think for anything we publish via Red Ruin should be compatible with the canon DW skills system.
@CobwebbedDragon As a note, the skills system I developed is pretty much compatible with vanilla DW - indeed, a player can choose which to use (if they prefer the more structured advancement from the original rules), as long as they stick to one or the other for that specific character.

However, it doesn't cater to non-profession skills really - it's more a 'roll your own profession' system. 'Mundane' skills should probably be determined by player background and game narrative, as they tend to be more 'flavour' than having frequent mechanical application.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:48 am 
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Honestly I'm just tired of the whole discussion.

Theres a dozen different options out there, pick the one that works for you and your group and have fun.

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co-author Friends or Foes
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co-author Cadaver Draconis
co-author Ordo Draconis 1 and 2.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:51 am 
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I recommend palladium fantasy 1ed. Pretty good skill system. Unfortunately they don't have sappers.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:57 am 
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My opinion toward Dragon Warriors is fairly simple.

DW is deeply flawed. Its an RPG from 85 And...
-Within those 35 years there is a ton RPG system that have done things better
-Including many small RPGs that emulate quite well that nostalgia based old-school dungeon crawler
-The author himself has said that his own game is not the vision he wished it would have been
-There were more books planned but never got made.

And finally, i totally reject the argument about house rules that there is a difference between changing the core of the game and adding to it. Things can get muddy really fast and thinking that house rules can add to the game without changing its core is just lying to one self. An house rule is just a change to the game regardless of how you want to interpret it changes the game.

As for skills system and new rules, they will always be a part of the game because when i read DW, what I see is mainly a dungeon crawler with the majority of its rules made to go in cavern or badly lit buidlings and almost non existent rules (be it good or bad) concerning social interactions. And well, gone are the days where all I wanted from my RPGs was to roll dice and slay dragons. Nowadays its often matters more to me why my character want to slay the dragon than the actual slaying.

Am I tired of those discussions about house rules, skills and everything else? Not really, they're part of the experience.


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