Dragon Warriors

I think a big reason that the old school D&D scene has blossomed over the last decade has been the presence of the Open Gaming License and the ability of third parties to publish their own modules, supplements, etc., without permission from anyone, and to profit by their efforts. Through the works of third parties, interest in old school D&D has grown, and it has allowed WotC to profit as well by increasing sales of its core book reprints, etc.

Is there any way that third parties can do something similar with Dragon Warriors, shy of "filing off the serial numbers" so to speak (i.e., using DW's mechanics but avoiding any trademarks, any claims of compatibility, or other grants of intellectual monopoly)?

I would guess that the answer is no. The Fan Policy (which can be found at: http://serpentking.com/?p=310) allows for the creation of unofficial material, but only if it is not charged for. Unless that policy changed for some reason, that's the way it is.

I know nothing about the internal decisions and discussions of those who 'own' or handle the Dragon Warriors IP in various ways (Serpent King, Fabled Lands LLP, Dave Morris, himself etc - possibly Oliver Johnson as well, but I'm not even clear on everybody involved) but I'm fairly sure that they were aware of the OGL model, and they've chosen not to go down that path for whatever reason. I doubt that is likely to change. It may partly be because the ownership is so complex.

Frankly, I'm glad that we have been granted the amount of freedom we have been granted. I've dealt with games companies that took a much harder line in the past (including the old TSR during the 1990s). I'd be ecstatic with even more 'freedom' but we're actually in pretty good shape as these things go.

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Life and Death Are Only a Dice Roll Away!

Shaun Hately
co-author A Weak Pleasure
co-author Friends or Foes
co-author Dragon Warriors Players Guide

I would suggest that anybody who is seriously interested in looking into this type of thing try and contact the rights holders themselves (if you can work out who the right person to contact is). It's not off topic on this forum, but I have the feeling this is the type of discussion that is better not done in public, in order to avoid creating issues that could be avoided. Yes, that's a bit cryptic but I'm not sure how else to put it.

_________________
Life and Death Are Only a Dice Roll Away!

Shaun Hately
co-author A Weak Pleasure
co-author Friends or Foes
co-author Dragon Warriors Players Guide

There has been a cultural resurgence in the fantasy genre generally, not just old-school gaming. Board games are more popular, Game of Thrones is popular, superhero films are in vogue, and so on. The Open Gaming Licence works because D&D is already popular and I think something similar for Dragon Warriors is likely to destroy what makes it special - without someone at the helm navigating the creative direction of the game to maintain that fragile something about Legend that makes the world still stand out after several decades, it would just become yet another old-school game that flashes in the pan to become quickly lost and forgotten.

D&D allows people to play fantasy superheroes, DW does not; and I think that is why D&D is more popular.

Part of me kinda likes how there're fewer than 20-or-so of us passionate fans left - makes me feel special to be part of such a select group of clearly-superior individuals .

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Cobwebbed Dragon (Lee)

https://www.cobwebbedforest.co.uk/
https://www.dragonwarriors.uk/
https://twitter.com/CobwebbedDragon
Now on YouTube!

If there's only 20 or so passionate fans left, I'd suggest that the game is already largely lost and forgotten.

I think it makes sense to separate old school D&D from later editions because old school D&D is much closer to DW when it comes to lethality and because neither receive much support from the companies that hold the copyrights on the games. If one does that, and then compares the vibrancy of the OSR gaming scene to that around DW, there's no contest between the two. Old school D&D gets dramatically more support from the community around it. I don't think that has to do with superiority of mechanics, or flavor, or anything else regarding the games themselves - DW has a lot to recommend it in all of those regards.

The reason DW lacks a similar vibrancy, I think, is that players are limited in terms of how they can contribute creatively to the game, and that in turn squashes its growth. While free resources published online are fine, the OSR has blossomed largely due to the small scale commercial efforts of individuals, whether through traditional publishing, print-on-demand services, crowdfunding projects, etc. Prohibiting players from raising funds for a project limits the quality of the artwork and other production values that can go into them, and makes the distribution of physical copies (which are still highly sought after) very difficult.

I can't imagine that opening up DW would dilute it. After all, if the audience is so small to begin with, what is there to dilute? The only way to go from here seems to be up, but it's hard to see that happening unless third parties grow the player base through the publishing of top notch supplemental materials.

I don't think the number is anywhere near that low. There are a lot of fans who participate in internet communities. I couldn't even guess at the numbers not knowing what sales figures are like for the books (and even that would not tell us about those who don't buy books but find them in other ways), but judging from the groups that I know are running locally from what I've done at conventions over the last few years, there are more than twenty passionate fans in my own city and while we might be a hotbed of DW, I doubt we're that much of a hotbed.

_________________
Life and Death Are Only a Dice Roll Away!

Shaun Hately
co-author A Weak Pleasure
co-author Friends or Foes
co-author Dragon Warriors Players Guide

I was distinguishing between fans, who enjoy the game, play it when they can, and appreciate new stuff when it comes out, and passionate fans, who will actively seek out opportunities to be involved in the game. I have a lot of RPG books sitting on my shelves for games I've picked up over the years, and whilst I'm a fan of some, I'm only a passionate fan of DW. Lots of people will pick up an RPG and never play it, having bought it to mine it for ideas, or just because they have some nostalgic attachment to it. I think the passionate few of us are very much a small and dwindling community.

If there are 20-or-so passionate fans in your city, that would suggest 3-4 gaming groups regularly playing Dragon Warriors as their preferred game in your city alone, which is fantastic (and great to hear - I'd be on the next flight out if I could!) Sadly, in the UK, I attend both of the big tabletop gaming conventions (UK Games Expo and Dragonmeet), but at neither do I even see Dragon Warriors for sale, let alone being played.

But like I said before, being a member of such an exclusive club is just one more thing that makes me even more special than I already am .

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Cobwebbed Dragon (Lee)

https://www.cobwebbedforest.co.uk/
https://www.dragonwarriors.uk/
https://twitter.com/CobwebbedDragon
Now on YouTube!

I know of five groups regularly playing Dragon Warriors on a weekly or fortnightly basis here in Melbourne. Besides my own two campaigns.

Checking Obsidian Portal (which, of course, is only one website) I can find a reasonable number of campaigns running in various places, although how active they are is hard to tell (I've also just discovered somebody has finally done a Dragon Warriors dynamic sheet for OP.

https://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns?game_system_id=140 - 21 campaigns listed. Although four of them are mine (and one of those four is defunct - the other two are my current real life campaigns, and my online one). And this doesn't include some other games I know on OP, which are DW related - set in Legend, but using different rules systems.

I certainly don't think the game has a massive fanbase, but I don't think it's anywhere near dead.

_________________
Life and Death Are Only a Dice Roll Away!

Shaun Hately
co-author A Weak Pleasure
co-author Friends or Foes
co-author Dragon Warriors Players Guide

It's really good to hear that DW is thriving in Melbourne (if only I could move over there ), and the Obsidian Portal stuff is interesting, too - I flicked through some of the campaigns that had any content (only about half, sadly, but still worth a peruse) and there are some interesting ideas in there.

Maybe there is life in the old dog, yet

_________________
Cobwebbed Dragon (Lee)

https://www.cobwebbedforest.co.uk/
https://www.dragonwarriors.uk/
https://twitter.com/CobwebbedDragon
Now on YouTube!

I imagine a lot of the stuff that would get published under an open licence will be a plethora of new professions and alternative settings, over which I think creative control should be maintained.

What I think could be opened up to commercial licence are adventures. I don't see any harm to the Dragon Warriors brand with adventures being published by anyone prepared to write them - and having a good library of adventures available to play will go a long way toward attracting players to the game. Some guidance from SKG as to what can(not) be included in any commercial adventure could potentially open up a little cottage industry for people looking to flex their creative skills and provide an alternative outlet for writers frustrated by having to compete in the D20 market.

_________________
Cobwebbed Dragon (Lee)

https://www.cobwebbedforest.co.uk/
https://www.dragonwarriors.uk/
https://twitter.com/CobwebbedDragon
Now on YouTube!