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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:12 pm 
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Starkad wrote:
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I hate to come across as an internet tough guy, but I reckon if you gave me a sword and told me to hit a department store mannequin that you'd placed next to me I'd be able to do it every single time.

Yes, but would it be an effective swing/hit every single time? ;)


The answer is yes.

Starkad wrote:
Offering no resistance doesn't mean they're standing still. It doesn't take more than a step for the opponent to miss (that can happen even when you might not be aware the opponent was even there)...


You've hit upon the nub of it. Clearly "zero Defence" can mean two different things; a target who is not offering active defence but is still tricky to hit, or a target who is super easy to hit. There are no numbers in the game to represent the difference in these two situations.

Starkad wrote:
Regarding the mannequin analogy; I allow the hitting of an inanimate or an otherwise immobile, helpless target if the attacker is not distracted (i.e. still in combat with others) and has plenty of time to aim their strike properly. That leads towards the coup de grace idea...


That's fine if its a mannequin, but what if its a bee? Hard to hit normally but small enough that even if dead my chance of missing it is nonzero. I reckon a bonus to Attack makes more sense when the GM agrees that the target is neutralised. Say +8 for a human-sized target, more for a bigger one and less for a smaller. Thoughts?

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:22 pm 
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Quote:
The answer is yes.

I admire your sense of optimism. Have you actually tried it?
As someone who has tried to smash a vehicle side window using a spiked steel bar* and bounced off, I can assure you that it's quite possible to fail. (I didn't fail on the second attempt - glass everywhere.)
* Yes, there was a good and legal reason.

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There are no numbers in the game to represent the difference in these two situations.

No, and I don't think there needs to be. That kind of detail is best left to those games with very thick rulebooks and multiple supplements... This kind of difference could easily be left to a GM call (IMO). Let's keep it simple.

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I reckon a bonus to Attack makes more sense when the GM agrees that the target is neutralised. Say +8 for a human-sized target, more for a bigger one and less for a smaller. Thoughts?

No reason why not but, again, I'd leave it to a GM call. If the target is immobile, helpless and easy to hit; then no problem. But if, as you say, the target is immobile but small, in poor light, &c., &c. then there would be a chance of missing and rolling against ATTACK is appropriate. The GM could assign a bonus (or penalty) as appropriate.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:17 am 
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Starkad wrote:

It may not be particularly realistic, but combat is already pretty dangerous in DW. No character ever gets many Health Points and it doesn't take many blows from an ogre's maul to see even the stoutest of knights fall over... Adding penalties makes the combat even more dangerous.

You may also want to consider this: every rule you make that increases danger is invariably a disadvantage to the characters. The monsters might be affected too,* but they only fight once: your characters will have to fight repeatedly to complete an adventure - so penalties accrued in one combat will affect them over several combats. Making wounds worse (and similar "realistic" rules) makes those adventures harder to complete... It depends what you and your players want out of the game.
* Except the undead, presumably?




True, true, but I'm curious. Maybe I'll put one together if I can find enough work time to kill. I figure a series of formulae that interlink. Realistically every wound would hinder a player. A knife wound in the guts would hobble your sprinting speed. At least this one would be easy to complete in a matter of weeks.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:20 am 
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Starkad wrote:
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The answer is yes.

I admire your sense of optimism. Have you actually tried it?
As someone who has tried to smash a vehicle side window using a spiked steel bar* and bounced off, I can assure you that it's quite possible to fail. (I didn't fail on the second attempt - glass everywhere.)
* Yes, there was a good and legal reason.


Nah you just rolled too low on your Armour Bypass. You still hit and in DW a hit is a hit is a hit (unlike, say D&D where you don't actually know if you hit but failed to penetrate armour, or simply missed).

Starkad wrote:
Quote:
I reckon a bonus to Attack makes more sense when the GM agrees that the target is neutralised. Say +8 for a human-sized target, more for a bigger one and less for a smaller. Thoughts?


No reason why not but, again, I'd leave it to a GM call. If the target is immobile, helpless and easy to hit; then no problem. But if, as you say, the target is immobile but small, in poor light, &c., &c. then there would be a chance of missing and rolling against ATTACK is appropriate. The GM could assign a bonus (or penalty) as appropriate.


I'm glad we agree! Our only difference is I'd have the bonus or penalty in the rulebook and you prefer not to.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:22 am 
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Kharille wrote:

True, true, but I'm curious. Maybe I'll put one together if I can find enough work time to kill. I figure a series of formulae that interlink. Realistically every wound would hinder a player. A knife wound in the guts would hobble your sprinting speed. At least this one would be easy to complete in a matter of weeks.


I can't quite tell if you're having a lend of us with this suggestion Kharille :?

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:06 am 
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Realistically every wound would hinder a player.

Realistically yes, but to a varying degree.

I was looking at the King Arthur Pendragon rules last night and that system splits wounds into three categories; light, major and mortal. Penalties and recovery depend on what kind of wound the character receives. The drawback to this (from a DW point of view) is that it relies on a random damage roll - a dagger in DW (d4, 3) would never cause such a serious wound...

...with fixed damage, I can only think of a system where the penalty is based on the proportion of Health Points a character has remaining (as I mentioned earlier; 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 health point left).

I'm interested to see what you come up with, Kharille. :)

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Nah you just rolled too low on your Armour Bypass.

:lol: Ok. Fair point.

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I'm glad we agree! Our only difference is I'd have the bonus or penalty in the rulebook and you prefer not to.

Yep. That said, there's no harm in providing a GM with some guidelines, I suppose...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:00 pm 
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[list=][/list]
Starkad wrote:
...with fixed damage, I can only think of a system where the penalty is based on the proportion of Health Points a character has remaining (as I mentioned earlier; 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 health point left).


An alternative approach is to record damage ascending. You have a Baseline Health Level (BHL) up to which you are not seriously impaired, and every multiple of that incurs an increasingly severe penalty to task rolls. There is no fixed point of death until you are basically physically destroyed at (say) x10 BHL, or suffer a mortal wound (whatever you decide that is). This approach has the small advantage of being easier to work out because there's no division involved, only multiplication. You can even put a little "damage ladder" on your character sheet to help you remember how bad things are getting.

Lets say Baseline Health Level is per the HP we see in the rules (4-9 for a regular human, 10-15 for a Barbarian etc). At 0-1x this damage, the character functions normally. At between x1 and x2 damage, all rolls incur a 3 point penalty to d20 rolls. At between x2 and x3 its 6 points. at x3 to x4 its 9 points etc. All other rolls would be affected too (1 point per damage level for d4, d6 and d8, 2 points for d10 and d12)

All of the top of my head. Ideas?

Cheers,

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:19 pm 
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Dave Morris' Blog wrote:
Injury: Stun, Knock-Out, and Death
Keep a track of cumulative wounds. Each time an injury is suffered, roll Toughness vs (Wounds + 5). A failed roll means that the character is stunned and has Attack and Defence of 0, until this time next turn. A roll failed by more than five means that the character is knocked out.

A character whose cumulative wounds score is greater than his Toughness must roll Wounds vs Toughness every time a further wound is taken, or die.


Something like this, or a system I saw once that involves 25%, 33% and 50% of HP in one blow.


Last edited by Acoma on Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:04 am 
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You are talking about some of my pet hates with hit points and damage.
1. If you stab an uninjured person with a dagger it is impossible to kill them with one blow. Even a critical hit can't do it.
2. If you have taken almost all your hit points of damage you're still able to move, fight and do anything else just as well as you could with full hit points.

I understand that these rules keep things nice and simple which is good, but it still irks me. I don't have any solutions at the moment either. :?

I like where you are going with the BHL and penalties to rolls. I'd also like to see a skilled attacker be able do more damage with a blow to address my first point. This could make it more lethal for players though...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:33 am 
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NickDaniel wrote:
I'd also like to see a skilled attacker be able do more damage with a blow to address my first point. This could make it more lethal for players though...


One way to do this would be to allow skilled Attackers (or anyone else actually) to sacrifice Attack points in exchange for extra AB or damage. This would help mitigate the fun-limiting situation in the rules in which an extremely high Attack combatant is exactly as effective against a puny foe as a merely very good one.

This would probably be best implemented in conjunction with revised Critical Hit rules to discourage feeble characters from sacrificing Attack when they could only score a hit on a critical roll anyway.

Cheers,

-Kyle


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